Hi guys, sorry to make another post. I’m hoping for an opinion of some of you dog experts on here So today Daisy had her first dog park experience (there’s a dog trainer manning it at all times). So far she’s been timid on walks only when meeting dogs bigger than her. We started puppy class and have been a few times and she seems very comfortable there, playing with all the pups even the labs that are a lot bigger than her. Due to her shyness with bigger dogs we thought taking her to a manned dog park would be good for extra socialisation. Today we went, there were only 4 big beagles in there along with the trainer. Well as soon as we walked in the dogs ran up to her and before they even got very close she was screaming this horrible petrified cry and running into the corner crouched down trying to get behind the small bin for protection. This was so distressing for us but the trainer insisted we left her as they were not harming her (they were all really friendly and didn’t actually touch Daisy at all just came close). Daisy was so distressed screaming for about 25 mins and running for shelter anywhere she could find it, she came running up to us crying and the woman insisted we not touch her or pay any attention. Anyway, about 30 mins in when the beagles all calmed down, Daisy was a bit better, letting them come up and sniff one by one and licking their faces when they did. She would still let out a cry if they got a bit too playful and knocked her. Even though they had no physical effect on Daisy I’m worried about a mental one, she seemed petrified, it was awful. The trainer insisted this is normal and she will become more confident but I’m worried this will have an adverse effect on her and make her fear this situation even more. They have a small dog session next weekend, we were going to take her back to this but I’d like your opinions as I’m not sure if leaving her that scared was the correct thing to do, and if not I won’t be taking her back again.
Hi @Jordan Maides I would avoid that park like it was the plague. In general, avoid dog parks. The dog trainer should not have carried out flooding on your dog. There are other and safer ways of getting dogs to be comfortable around other dogs. Meetings with other dogs need to be supervised so that your dog is comfortable with the interaction with each and every dog. Your dog should not be distressed. If that does happen, then remove your dog from the interaction. My advice would be to stick to the puppy class in which she had a good time meeting the other dogs, and stay away from dog parks. Later enrol at a good obedience school in which all the dogs are all managed and controlled. A traumatic experience may manifest itself when your dog is around 9 to 10 months old. If I were you I would start LAT training with your puppy now. There is a folder on this site. Please read it and watch the extremely well done video. It may not be necessary because your dog might not become reactive. But it is safer to practice a precautionary measure. It will also give you an opportunity to practice your timing. I feel sorry for you and your dog. You relied on the dog trainer to give your good advice, and trusted his expertise. And there is no absolutely need to apologise about making posts here.
I agree with everything you've been advised but I would like to add, you are your dogs protector, that person has no understanding of dogs. Not all people who claim to be dog trainers are. Please don't take your poor dog back and in future, trust YOUR instincts, you're instincts told you to remove your dog, listen to them. I have learned the hard way that by not protecting my pup properly, I'm left with a poor dog that's seen as aggressive in all situations when he encounters other dogs.
Hi @Cupcase Sorry to hear about your dog's history. I am wondering whether you have tried BAT training with your dog? It can be a good protocol for changing a fear-aggressive dog's attitude towards other dogs.
Thanks so much for your replies. It's safe to say I will not be taking her back there, and I feel awful for leaving her in the situation But as Michael said, I trusted the trainer and she made it seem like she knew exactly what she was talking about and that it was completely normal. I'll stick to the puppy class and enrol her into an obedience school when she's done with that, and hope and pray this experience doesn't affect her later on. Thanks again.
Hi @Jordan Maides I'm curious. Is the dog park in question a private profit-making concern, or something offered for free by a local council?
I manage Cupar, I'm lucky in where I live, I have access to fields where I can remove myself but as for doing LAT or BAT training thanks to the amount of 'professional' dog walkers and the amount of owners who have no control of their dogs, I can no longer go to public parks or beaches, which we have lots of, these forms of training are a non starter, as I have no control over other dogs. For any protocol to work I have to be able to keep my dog at a distance and most dogs have NO recall and the my dog is friendly brigade rule all these public spaces. I try to use the streets but due to someone who believes she knows all about dogs, she walked her dogs on the main street without leads, one of her dogs ran across the road to my dog, so Cupar now has another bad memory of this street. Hence why I feel the need to advice people against listening to so called dog trainers who flood dogs with the thing that scares them most.
Sorry I should have mentioned this in the original post. Where I live there are no free dog parks offered by the council, so yes it was a privately owned, profit making dog park. Seems very popular as it's the only one in the area, and has rave reviews online about the trainer and her daycare (after our experience I would hate to see what goes on in the daycare).
Hi @Cupcase I completely understand the difficulty. It's not possible to do desensitisation if you can't control the threshold distance.. You'd have to do the training with a trainer who had control over her decoy dog. But as there so many thoughtless dog owners out there, I can see how even such training could be undone. Thanks for giving me some additional insight.
Where I live in the Usa we have lots of free dog parks but they're totally unsupervised and the dogs just run wild. I would never take my dog to one. Too much could go wrong.
That sounds awful. Of course you should never leave a distressed dog to be distressed. Dogs are not children, but their attachment needs are actually very similar to those of all mammals - humans (and human children) included. When a young mammal is distressed, they need to be rescued and removed from that situation ASAP and ideally should never be put in it, in the first place. I can't imagine this going on for 25 minutes and standing by... Please don't give up power to anyone in a position of authority over you. Think about Milgram's experiments using electric shock administered to people, and how when the experimenter assured participants that what they were doing was ok, they were quite prepared to administer almost lethal levels of electric shocks to other people - all because someone else was telling them to, and because they saw that person as an authority figure... https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html Never see another person as an authority figure and follow what they say if your gut is telling you otherwise. Since Daisy is within the socialisation period, this experience could well have affected her for life and if you start to see any fear aggression or reactivity when she reaches the age of 9-12 months, you can trace it right back to this.... you won't see the results immediately.
I know, and I can’t even begin to tell you how awful I feel about it. But I would expect a dog trainer to have more knowledge than me (a first time dog owner), so I believed her. I didn’t know dog parks were such a bad thing and I actually envied the ones you have in the US, so when I saw there was one open near me I thought this would be a good thing. If this had been an unmanned dog park I would have taken her away the second she showed fear, but as there was a “trainer” stood right there telling us that it’s normal we didn’t. I prepared so well to have Daisy and everything’s going amazing so far, but unfortunately I will never know as much as you guys with experience so it was not as obvious to me that dog parks were so bad. I will lookout for these signs around 9-12 months, but at this present time I think the whole experience has affected me more than her, feeling very stupid and awfully guilty. Is there anything else I can do now to try and prevent this having an affect later in her life?
I thought you were in the US, didn't realise you're in Uk. I have never heard of dog parks in the uk. You're not expected to know everything, you were uncomfortable with the whole experience. It is a lesson learned. Please don't feel guilty, heck I should be a walking guilt trip, I got my first dog as an adult when Barbara Woodhouse was on the TV. It would take a book to tell all my mistakes. Listen to your instincts.
Hi @Jordan Maides @leighxxxx is correct, don't beat yourself up. You were not to know what could happen. As I said I would start on the LAT protocol now so that you can desensitise your dog's attitude towards Beagles in particular and other dogs in general. It will be useful training even if your dog has not been affected by the experience.
Hi @Jordan Maides - so sorry to hear that you've had a horrible experience, especially when you had faithfully put your trust in a trainer. I think you've had some really great responses to your initial post, but I did just want to say please don't beat yourself up. We are first time dog owners, and it's so hard to distinguish between gut instinct and inexperienced worrying. I am still cross with myself for listening to the advice of our breeder on certain things, and I'm also cross with myself for not knowing the signs of Giardia until our little one got very poorly. I guess you just have to build up experience as you go and as you discover something new, research it and educate yourself on it so you can inform your gut instinct at a later date. Yes, Daisy might be affected by what happened and it's prudent to look out for any signs when she's a bit older, but it is also likely that she will be absolutely fine as long as it's avoided in the future. Plenty of dogs have terrible experiences and go on to be perfectly okay as adults. The main thing is that you can now trust your instincts if the same situation happens again. Sounds like you're a great owner that wants to do the best thing for your pup. Definitely ditch that particular trainer though, and set up your own socialising opportunities with friend's dogs or with people you've met at puppy classes. That way you can introduce them one on one, and you'll know the temperament of the dogs first. Good luck, and don't worry
Thank you both, I’m just glad that I came on here to ask your opinions and now I know not to take her back. I’ve read through the threat on LAT and will be starting her on that on our next walk. I think I’ll also ask some of the other dog owners at the next puppy class if they’d like to meet up so our dogs can play together as I know they’re comfortable with each other. Thanks again, this forum has been so much help and support
I agree, it’s so hard to decide to go with your gut or listen to a trainer. Especially as first time owners, you do expect these people to know more about dog behaviour than you do. Exactly, I’ll never make this mistake again with any dog I own in the future so that’s one thing. She’s in a wonderful environment and this has been her first negative experience so I do hope this doesn’t affect her later on. Sorry to hear your little one was so ill with Giardia. Daisy had it too, but we caught it in time luckily and one round of medication did the trick. I hope your pup is feeling better now too! Thank you for the words of encouragement and sharing your experience, it really helps to know others have been in similar situations
Hi @Jordan Maides You will need to teach Look first in a low distraction and familiar environment before using it on a walk. The video contained in the thread is worth watching twice. When your pup plays with the other dogs, then make sure they are playing and having a good time You should see play bows, each dog taking its turn to be on the bottom. Curved bodies. Any sign of fear or aggressive behaviour, then increase the distance between the dogs until you see calming signs. Welcome to the fun of reading dog body language. Ask your instructor about snuffle mats and plastic pools filled with balls. The idea is to get the dogs to interact and be calm rather than learning that the behaviour with other dogs is supposed to mimic earthworms in a can. That is reward calmness. Get all the puppies interacting with the owners as an integral part of the game. A free for all with all the dogs just climbing on top of each other is what you want to avoid. It teaches dogs that being over aroused is how one should be around other dogs.
