So this last part of your post is what I am really trying to focus on with my puppy. Two of my best friends each have puppies around the same age (a goldendoodle and a golden retriever). Since they were all puppies, we have let them play with each other off leash in the back yard here and there. Not every day or anything, but I would say we would meet up a couple times a month and have puppy play time. Before reading this site, I didn't think any harm of it and thought it was good for them to socialize. But after a few times of them doing it, and observing how it went, I just didn't feel great about it. There were also times where it was unsupervised and we would be in the house. My dog and the golden retriever have a ton of energy around each other and they just don't stop going at it, even though they are playing. But the play is pretty rough and they just don't know when to quit. The owners of the golden retriever have the mind set that it's good to tire them out, but my mind set was always that my dog looked like he was playing too rough because he was so tired and I could sense it. Also, that it was just a free for all with the dogs not acting civil and just jumping all over each other. That's when I realized I started hating the idea of this "play". My dog listens to me very well. When we train, around the house, at the park on the long or short lead, and even around other dogs when I am in control. But in these "play" situations, listening is thrown out the window. So seeing that and after reading more about rough play on here and seeing how the dogs just didn't listen to anyone while they were playing, I have stopped this all together and am going to be a lot more careful about how they play. I am just glad I have stopped it before he developed terrible habits. I am now focusing on the normal training around other dogs in a supervised environment and I will not allow rough play anymore with my friends dogs. Just wondering if there was any more advice you can give regarding this?
Yes, beating yourself up won't do any good I too thought you were in the US, as dog parks are not really a 'thing' in the UK! We have all been there, though (most of us who have been around long enough 14 years ago, I took our Weimaraner puppy to a ringcraft class (show handling) - I think she was about 16 weeks - and, at our first lesson, the instructor saw that (as a typical Weimaraner puppy!) she was zooming about everywhere on the leash and not trotting nicely at my side. So, in front of everyone, to demonstrate how it should be done, she took her off me and proceeded to 'correct' her (ie - jerk the leash hard) every time she tried to go somewhere. Of course, seeing me - her figure of safety, who should be protecting her - standing there, she tried to go to me to get away from the awful woman and what was happening. And, each time she tried to go to me for safety, she got yanked around the neck. This happened 2 or 3 times, before I decided I would not be going back to that club. I stood up in front of everyone, and walked up to the woman and said 'Can I have my dog back please?'. I could hardly speak, I was so afraid. She gave me the leash and I just turned and walked out of the hall. As I was leaving, I heard everyone else watching, break out into a spontaneous round of applause for me. That made me really happy - and is actually one of my proudest moments of dog ownership, forget about competitions and achievements and all the rest of it... I knew I had done a great thing and hopefully set an example for all those people watching and I've no idea how she got out of things after that response from them!! But I still felt awful, and beat myself up - for taking my dog there; for not watching the class first to ensure it was ok; for agreeing to hand the lead of my dog over to this woman; for not standing up after just one leash jerk, let alone 2 or 3.... - for everything I had done that resulted in that experience, for my pup. I was in tears, getting my bus home with my puppy. And, human-and-socially speaking, there is often a lot riding on this kind of thing. Like: This was my first time going to this club. Even if the tuition was rubbish, attending would have been an opportunity to get my pup used to focussing on me and working with me in that environment - and showing generally, being gone-over by a judge etc. And I knew that, in making a stand like I did, I could not go back to that club and I was about to 'lose' all of that for us. Which is why I hesitated and waited for several leash jerks before I acted... There are often powerful human dynamics at play in situations like this, and recognising them and then choosing to override them, is often necessary. The important thing is that I recognised it for what it was, and took steps to not let it happen again. And so did you! So - please don't feel bad about it. Because we have all been there. In future, though, you should know that ANYONE can call themselves a dog trainer. You, yourself could decide tomorrow to call yourself a 'dog trainer'. You need to have no qualifications or experience to call yourself a trainer. As a result of this, you need to look for reputable trainers who are members of recognised organisations - since, to join these organisations, they must have experience and credentials. In the UK, the organisations to look for are: http://www.apdt.co.uk https://www.imdt.uk.com https://ppgbi.com https://karenpryoracademy.com http://puppyschool.co.uk https://academyfordogtrainers.com For your particular puppy, I would really recommend you check out puppyschool.co.uk - because I know that Puppy School have supervised off-leash play sessions at the end of every class. (I used to be a Puppy School instructor.) They choose which puppies should interact together and socialisation will be very carefully carried out. Other than that, I do know a good trainer in Wales - Tracey Prall - I've no idea if she is anywhere near you, but her website is: http://www.canineconnections.co.uk Tracey and I trained as CBATIs together a few years back. I would suggest you email the instructor and explain what has happened, so they can be aware of your puppy's history before your first class. But your goal is to come out of puppyhood (the socialisation period) at 16 weeks, without this fear about other dogs. The clock is ticking...! But also - don't rush, don't overwhelm your puppy, and make sure you take things at your own puppy's pace.
Hi @Bud Light/Dilly Dilly Here are some suggestions. 1. Buy a snuffle mat. Put some treat on the top. Easy to find. One dog on lead is taken over to the snuffle may. The other dogs on leads are walked by the dog who is allowed to find the treats. Each dog takes a turn. 2. Next bury the treats deep down in the fabric. The other dogs are walked by. Every dog gets his turn. The idea of the game. Sniffing is a calming behaviour. The dogs learn to be relaxed around other dogs. For variety, you can buy a child's pool. Fill it with plastic balls. Do not fill with water. Throw the treats in the pool. Each dog gets its turn to find treats amongst the balls. Since you have a history of free for all you may have to use distance to the snuffle mat and pool to get the dogs who are walked by to calm. Also use body position of the owners. start with the owners walking by with their bodies between the sniffing dog and the walking dogs. Later on the dogs walking by can be dog to sniffing dog. Give enough distance so that the sniffing dog is calm. You may be surprised at how the nose detection work mentally tires the dogs out, especially when the treats are pushed down in the weave. It will of course require a change of behaviour in the kaffee klatsch. The owners have to become participants in the game. I am not ruling out dogs playing together. It is a vital part of the development of puppies. They learn from their siblings. They are rough with each other. But they also sleep with each other. But what do four months old puppies learn from rough behaviour, that rough aroused behaviour is the norm when around other dogs. We owners don't want that. We want our dogs to calmly walk down the street when there is a strange dog approaching. I do let my dog run with another dog. Once they got rough with each other. We intervened. Since then they play wonderfully with each other. Play with one ball. No resource guarding. They chase each other around the garden. End up resting together on the grass. Rough house behaviou is not part of their behaviour because we prevented it from the outset. They wag their entire bodies when they see each other. The instructor at the obedience class has noticed their behaviour. So invited us to get our dogs to simultaneously jump a series of jumps. The new members in the class did not know that such an exercise is not part of obedience testing. The owner of the staffordshire looked at the owner of the maremma and said "I dont think my dog will do that". Iit is possible. We just need to be part of the play, and show them how to interact. We reinforce calmness around other dogs. Let us know how you get on.
This is awesome advice, as usual. I guess my only concern is that all my friends would have to be on board with doing it and I feel like I’m the only one who is on the over protective side about the way they are playing with each other. My friends aren’t as concerned about training the same way I am and they don’t seem to mind rough play, nor do they seem to see a problem with how they play. But my dog has come home with little cuts so that’s enough for me to draw the line. The rough play is more with the golden retriever rather than the golden doodle, however, they all still run wild together and don’t wait till they are given a queue to play (my fault of course for not training this from the beginning). I do want them to play, but the way they do it now isn’t the right way in my opinion and I believe will cause bad habits with other dogs if it continues. If I don’t end up trying the sniffle mats, my thought is to try what you suggested, which is to make me or my friends part of the game, which I haven’t really done so far with all of them. Thanks so much for the advice, yet again. It’s great stuff and I’m learning new things every day on here.
Hi @Bud Light/Dilly Dilly It's hard if there is no meeting of minds. The owner of the other Lab who plays with my dog is a trainee veterinary nurse. She understands well the approach of reinforcing calm interaction. I taught her how to do scent detection. And she then taught her dog. We then used the dog, who was not doing the detection, to be part of the distraction. Perhaps you can buy a snuffle mat (I don't know where you reside but our obedience club paid A$100 for one as wide as a door) and teach the rest of the group how to use it. Go gently on the methodology. When they see their dogs doing elementary nose work, they might come onside. If it fails to convince, you can always use the snuffle mat to feed your own Lab at home. It's useful to slow the dog down when she is consuming her meal.
Thank you for sharing your experience from years ago, it's very reassuring to hear. I find it crazy that anybody can call themselves a dog trainer without any qualifications or experience necessary! At least I know this now and will look into any future classes more thoroughly. This is pretty scary though as I never knew that anyone can just call themselves one, and I assume many many other dog owners will not know this either and let their dogs be "taught" by someone like this. I've just checked and Tracey's classes are around one and a half hours away from me but unfortunately this to far for me to drive to weekly. Puppyschool.co.uk's closest session is also just over a hours drive I will look into the other links and try and find a class near me. Thank you again for your advice and sharing your experience
You're welcome! Also - don't forget to check out trains to puppy training Often they are faster than driving, less stressful, and going on the train is a great socialisation experience for a puppy
Thanks again. I will get a sniffle mat and in due time I will just bring it over to my friends one day and see how they do with it. I’m also probably going to do my best to keep him away from the golden retriever for the time being.
