How to find a good breeder with our timescales for a puppy

Hi,

First post, so apologies if covered before.

We are looking to get a Fox Red puppy, ideally non-working, around the beginning of July.

Ideally enough notice to speak to breeders, but how do you find the good breeders? Done some googling,looked at a few commercial websites ( Pets4homes).

Any advice would be much appreciated .

Thanks

N

 

Hi @Noel74

Welcome to the site.

In what country and region do you reside?

 

Champdogs Is a better site, pet4homes often have none health tested pups and you want good health tested parents. I would not buy a pup from untested parents. If you look on this site you will find advice on tests which are essential and information about COA. Also join a lab site like yellow labs and you can find out more from people who already have them. They also maybe able to suggest breeders. You may have to wait for a pup but for the right pup it's worth it. I'm a member of a few lab sites and breeders often have their own sites which are informative and interesting. I would chat with as many different breeders and owners. If you feel brave speak to people if you like the look of their dogs go to dog shows if you like a dog speak to the breeder most love talking about their dogs. Look around take your time. Only buy from tested doggie parents

 

You could also look on the kennel clubs website. They give details about health testing and you can also access info like COA results for littered and breeding dogs health tests. They also do a list of breeders who are under their accreditation scheme. Large Labrador clubs also have lists of breeders. Be prepared to pay between 700 to 1200 quid for a good well raised pup. Look out for puppy farms and dogs which seem cheap.do research into what to look out for for puppy farms there's stuff about it on this site.

 

Dexter was found via Champdogs, far more info available such as previous litters, sire etc and the important health check information to follow up on - as it happens this breeder was also on the Kennel Club site and had the litter on there. Some breeders want to check you out quite a bit as well and even "match" you to the puppy.

 

It can be a bit like catching wild birds and slow and careful. The good ones are very careful will their puppies.

 

We used Google to search for breeders in our general area. We looked for pups from parents where both had hunting or field titles. Even though I was not sure that I was going to train Cooper for hunting, (I didn't) I wanted the conformation and drive that went with a field dog.

 

Labradors either come from working/field stock or show stock. (Or combinations thereof.). Those are the purposes the breed exists for - and which IMO a good breeder is breeding with, in mind.

A good breeder isn't just breeding to produce pet puppies. Why do that? There are bazillions of dogs looking for homes, so a good breeder isn't deliberately adding more puppies to the world to be pets.

Typically a good breeder, will be breeding for a specific purpose and to better the breed - either in terms of conformation or performance.

Fox red labs are not 'show' dogs, since fox red isn't an acceptable colour in the show ring. That leaves working...

Even if you do find a fox red lab whose owners don't work the dog, his or her parents or grandparents will very very likely have been worked. You are not safely avoiding anything at all, through looking for parent dogs who are not worked. The Labrador is still (thank god) a working dog and even individuals which are not worked are genetically identical to those which are - the lines are not completely different.

 

I believe Fox Red is an acceptable color in the US show ring, though Silver is not.

 

According to the Kennel Club on Labrador colours
"The only correct colours are wholly black, yellow or liver/chocolate. Yellows range from light cream to red fox. Small white spot on chest and the rear of front pasterns permissible."
So sorry @Jo Laurens red fox is an acceptable colour in the show ring even if not commonly seen there.

 

We used Champ Dogs and our puppy is excellent, plus the breeder was local too.

 

I don't mean officially not acceptable according to the KC - I mean 'acceptable' in the eyes of judges; what is generally desirable in a show ring.

Whatever the breed standard says, the point is that it is very very very rare to see a fox red in a show ring and increasingly incredibly common in working/field bred labradors. Therefore, looking for a fox red puppy will almost certainly mean not looking for show bred labradors and instead looking for working blood. Which is a hard thing to do if you are also wanting parents that are 'preferably not working'.... whilst looking for a fox red lab...

 

This is Betsy's Grandfather - in the show ring. He had a career in both field and ring that would be good enough for me.

4528050370_214x157 by Julie T, on Flickr

4528050371_239x156 by Julie T, on Flickr

Of the hundreds of Labradors I meet that are described as "show line" I think very fews have been anywhere near a breeder that is seriously breeding for the ring.

I think most Labradors are bred for the pet dog market to be honest. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We do not have a problem with rescue Labradors in the UK finding homes (unlike the national scandal that is Staffies not finding homes). And I see absolutely nothing wrong with breeding health checked, good temperament dogs for the pet dog market.

 

But still a rarity! Posting up one photo of a fox red lab in a show ring, is missing the point.

This is very silly. I don't really want to have an argument about whether or not fox red labs are acceptable in the show ring. Trying to focus this discussion on that one word, is really not seeing the wood for the trees and missing the point I was making. Maybe 'acceptable' is the wrong word - 'found with any frequency to speak of' - however you want to put it.

And there we will have to differ. I believe strongly that dogs should be bred for a purpose and should have 'jobs' to do. And if those jobs are not to be what they were originally designed for (gundog work), then they should be bred towards other jobs - from customs, search and rescue to dog sports. If there are excess puppies left over from a litter (as there often will be) then those pups can find their way to a pet home - but the purpose of the litter would not have been just to produce pet puppies.

In a world where we are destroying millions of dogs a year due to simply not being able to place them in homes (many of them labradors or Labrador crosses), I really don't think I could ethically support the deliberate breeding of pet puppies.

Besides which, labradors are the dogs they are, because of what they were originally bred to do. Without breeding for that purpose and goal, and with breeding a dog which just resembles a Labrador, we stand to lose many of the characteristics we love.

Of course, but that doesn't mean they are not 'show line'. If you look back about 10-15 generations, you will soon see names and what's behind the dog really.

 

What is? What I said...or what you said?

Do you really mean you haven't seen any Fox Red Labradors at Crufts on the telly?

That well may be what you believe. But that doesn't stop endless, really endless, breeders breeding for the pet dog market. Which is what most Labradors are.

Yes it does. These dogs can't remotely be considered "show line".

Just like the endless number of dogs in the parks these days - seriously endless numbers - of dogs with noise phobia, no muscle tone whatsoever, that couldn't do a day's work to save their lives, and are described as "fox red working line", can't seriously be considered to be really "working line".

You only say that because you are determined there are only two types - show and working. There are three types. Show, working, and pet bred.

And there are good and bad breeders of all.

 

Returning to the topic of “Fox Red” Labradors in the ring.

The show line breeders I know say the dark yellow died out in "working line" (as you, Jo, describe it) and the only reason it exists today is because it was carried down in show line dogs. I don't really know whether this is true or not – you know, the show line side delights in laughing at the working line people for thinking “dark yellow” (called Fox Red to make it more work like ) is its thing, just like the working line side shouts “not fit for purpose”! (pleeese.... ) but that doesn’t mean it is or isn’t true....

But it definitely is not the case that decent show judges would mark down a dog because it was dark yellow. Not any I know and respect anyway - although of course judges in show or working tests aren't always perfect as we all know.

But looking back at show line dogs, you can absolutely see that the “fox red” (really, just dark yellow) colour existed in show line dogs when it became popular in the 70s and 80s. I don’t know enough about working line dogs to say the same – do you?

So a very well known show line champion in the 1980s was Wynfaul Tobasco – and he was related to Sandylands and Poolstead dogs (you can’t get more showline than that...) – so very, very many show line dogs around today, including mine – which are both from breeders active and winning in the ring - are related to those dogs.

The breeders I know say the pin sire for the dark yellow colour was show champion Balrion King Frost, and its easy to trace Tobasco and other dark yellow champions back to him – so it may well be true.

 

And when I take a quick look at what I would call typical "pet bred" US labradors, and I've just looked at a couple of high profile sites, they have their origin in Keepsake Cajun and Kellygreens Kardinal which in turn leads back to Tabasco.

 

Welcome to the forum Noel - there is a detailed guide here: https://thehappypuppysite.com/puppy-search-a-step-by-step-guide/ that may help you with your search

Are you in the UK?

 

I don't have a problem with Labs being bred as pets, since that is what most of them are here. We looked for dogs with hunting or field titles, because we wanted strong smart dogs, even though we probably did not really plan to hunt them. Labs breeding seems to make them ideal as pets, for people who want an active, tough, dog that loves to do things outdoors as well as being a reasonably well behaved indoor companion.

 

The entire conversation, from both - because it's not really what the OP needed help with or what this thread is about. It's kind of taking issue with one sentence in something I said, to create a long debate about it.

No, I haven't. Not true, deep dark red labradors such as you see in working labs.

I don't get what the purpose of this sentence is: Because saying something doesn't stop it, therefore it should not be said? I'm not really sure where that would leave human society, full stop, let alone hopes and beliefs and aspirations. I was just responding to you saying:

I do.

Yes they can, IMO. There are working labs and there are show labs. Dogs may not have been bred for either purpose, for generations, but if you look far enough back in their pedigrees you will see working and/or show blood until you get back to dual purpose dogs. What the individual dog looks and behaves like (phenotype) has nothing to do with what they are, genetically (genotype).

I have seen dogs the product of two SHCHs which are noise phobic and would never get placed in any show, with very weird looking faces. I have seen working dogs the product of two FTCHs which are nervy and weak and gun-shy. Their phenotypes do not somehow 'negate' their genotypes. They still are, genetically, what they are. It doesn't mean they are suddenly not show-line or working-line just because they have these characteristics.

Equally, you often get dogs with no recognisable names for many generations on their pedigrees, which are unexpected throwbacks to amazing dogs earlier. Yet even their littermates may be the 'no muscle tone whatsoever, noise phobic' dogs....