Help struggling with terrible behaviour

Not really. The dog will still sit when asked, without being shown a treat beforehand.

If you have to show the dog the spray bottle to get them to stop unwanted behaviour, are you planning on permanently carrying a spray bottle with you??

We are not dogs. We can't try to behave like a dog, towards a dog. We don't sniff their butts to greet them, so neither should we base any of our behaviour towards them on efforts to behave like another dog. There is no scientific basis for this approach.

Research shows that using ANY form of punishment severely damages your working relationship with your dog; increases avoidance behaviours; makes it less likely that the dog will want to engage with you for future training; and makes a big withdrawal from the 'bank account' of your relationship.

https://glasgowdogtrainer.wordpress...shouldnt-train-your-dog-using-a-spray-bottle/

https://www.pawsitivetrainingcenter...s-using-a-spray-bottle-really-training-my-dog

https://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/blog/spraying-your-pet-does-not-work/

 

@Jo Laurens I'm not making the leap to sniffing my dog's butt, nor do I think 'I'm a dog' meting out punishment the way another dog would. I'm saying the concept of "punishment" must be in social animals' behavioral repertoire and not something that will automatically psychologically damage them. She's gotten snapped at in the dog park for trying to take a toy another dog was playing fetch with. She stopped and moved on and played with other dogs. She's been batted by the cat for sniffing her too vigorously. She backed off and approached again more slowly. She's not afraid of dogs or cats and is still very much into approaching them both.

And yes, the bottle goes with me on walks.

I've seen one study described which found spraying water increased aggression in dogs, from the University of Pennsylvania in 2009. I see nothing about the breed or ages of the dogs in the study, or if the study was replicable in the articles I found, though.

As an aside and slightly off topic, I'm noticing that some of the sites I'm being linked to are created by or related to Karen Pryor, who apparently learned her clicker/positive-reinforcement-only technique training marine mammals/dolphins. It's meant to build a great relationship with your animal and reduce/eliminate fear or aggression which can be caused by any aversives, yes? Does anybody know if they use her method to train orcas at SeaWorld? I can find some links where she's at SeaWorld or endorsing SeaWorld's training/keeping orcas, even after Tilikum mauled his trainer (her blog about that event was...unsettling). I like clicker training, but what's the feeling on how that whole training debacle turned out as far as the technique being the best method for getting the consistent behavior/bonding with the animal you're trying to train?

 

I can't see how animal trainers would be able to use any other technique. Positive punishment? Spraying water is obviously not going to work on sea mammals. Ecollar would not work either. And how would one administer negative punishment? Remove them from the pool because they failed to breach the water? How would one do that?

And to be clear the animal trainers are using positive reinforcement because it works.

The query on carrying the bottle around with you is to invite the thought: How do I get to the point where my dog follows my cue without seeing the treat or the aversive?

As I pointed out in a previous post, some dogs value a spray as a positive reward. Spraying does NOT represent an aversive with all dogs. But it CAN be viewed as punishment by some dogs. Manifestly, your dog is treating it so far as part of your punishment process.

Isn't one of the questions here, how are you going to get your dog to walk calmly next to you without any form of continuous treat or continuous threat of punishment? I understand how to do it with treats. How are you going to do it with a spray bottle?

 

The former trainers who've spoken out against SeaWorld have specifically mentioned a policy of withholding food as punishment. (It actually reminds me of on here, I've seen posts talking about 'making the dog work for every bit of their meals.' I don't think that's humane at all, making a dog so hungry they'll do whatever you want for a scrap of food? That doesn't really offer them the "choice" of doing the right thing for a reward.)

I totally agree! I wasn't questioning the success of the training technique for teaching a behavior, I'm questioning Pryor's (and others') conclusion that clicker/"force free" training will also build a "bond" with an animal that I'm guessing translates into a better, more stable relationship than any other training methods - when that is demonstrably not the case in marine mammals. If it doesn't guarantee any lack of aggression or aberrant behavior from the "test pilot" animals, why are we so sure it will from other species?

Per her site (with no retraction of update I've found, mind) :

Dolphins and whales are the first to be kept in captivity to be trained by truly modern, force-free methods as opposed to avoidance training or the traditional “do as I say or else” way. Sea World has mastered ways of training without using fear or force, setting what we believe to be the gold standard for humane and intelligent training of these animals. The work that Sea World and other oceanariums have done has opened up people’s eyes and made them see that there is a better way to train -- not only dolphins and whales, but any animal. Over the last 40 years, scientific-based, force-free training methods have spread into other animal populations, such as dogs, horses and even cattle.​

According to her, SeaWorld sets the "gold standard" for their "humane" training methods, after countless attacks and two kills (so far) from the orca on trainers using their techniques. Mind boggling. This is the woman who's word is training gospel?

There is no continuous threat and she walks with me much better now, in spite of any provocative stimulus - like I said before. I'm hoping as she matures and I get her more exposure to dogs and exciting social situations, the entire source of her frustration in those moments will be eliminated.

 

One is not always doing this to starve the dog. If one is going to feed the dog, then why not train the dog at the same time. It's a positive sum game

I don't know a great deal about training sea mammals, but wouldn't one need statistics on all the number of mammals that have been trained before claiming, as you seem to be, that marker training is highly problematic. We humans tend to exaggerate the importance of small probabilities. (See Kahneman's work on biases).

For what it is worth, I have never seen nor heard of a dog attacking its trainer because it had been positively reinforced in the past. I do know of cases where other methods have made a dog aggressive.

Hmm if you are carrying the bottle with you, then the threat is ever present. Your dog can't read your mind and determine that today you will not use it.

I look back on my own learning and think of the negative experiences I had from so many of my teachers. It is a wonder that I actually got through school. I did not learn much in those classes. I was more worried about when I was going to be hit next or ridiculed in front of the class. The learning experiences that I do remember and the ones that did inspire me were from the rare "positive trainers".

Now I must admit I'm reluctant to use human experiences to discuss how dogs learn in specific situations. I think there is a tendency to extrapolate too quickly from our own experiences. Anecdotes are not scientific evidence.

Nevertheless I do know from teaching many different dogs and owners that marker training does result in real progress. I had a very reactive dog in my last class. By the end of the class the dog was able to sit and stay with a dog on both sides. The positive reinforcement of calm behaviour had worked. And I do know that dogs learn from classical conditioning too. A positive atmosphere can promote learning even if the dogs are not making any conscious choices.

I see my role here on this forum, such as it is, of thinking how to create positive (not in the operate conditioning sense) experiences to promote learning. I do believe in the LIMA principle as an ethical guide. I spend a lot of time and energy on the bottom rungs of that "ladder" in which positive reinforcement comes to the fore. All I can do in the end is seek to persuade. I can't force owners to do anything. I am too much of a liberal contractarian to do so anyway.

 

Hi @Jo Laurens

I've read the three links cited but I don't think any of them constitute research nor they do cite research of the standard academic variety, (peer reviewed, double blind experiments, large sample sizes). (I find Steve White to be confused and confusing).

Are you able to provide a reference to academic research for your claim that all punishment (which must include negative punishment) results in such consequences? Because if it is true, then I can't see how we do any dog training. In the transition from continuous reinforcement to a variable rate of reinforcement, the dog will experience negative punishment, ie. the withdrawal of an expected treat. Equally, in shaping when a criterion is raised the withdrawal of an expected reinforcer for behaviour that was previously rewarded constitutes negative punishment.

 

I started to gather some of the published studies that are available in this article: The Evidence For Positive Reinforcement Training. The links to the studies are towards the end of the article. For clarity - when we talk about avoiding punishment, and the downsides of using punishment in training (more info and explanation on that here) , we are usually refering to positive punishment. Perhaps we should make that clearer. Force Free dog trainers do use negative punishment. What they avoid, or attempt to avoid, is positive punishment and negative reinforcement.

There are some more studies that should be added to that article so I'll dig them out. If anyone has links to others that should be included, that would be helpful. There is still a dearth of literature on this topic, and ethical problems in creating really well constructed trials but the body of evidence is growing steadily

 

It sounds as though you may be confusing bribery with training here. Bribery is occasionally a useful management tool but never an effective training tool. Have a look at this article: https://totallydogtraining.com/are-you-bribing-your-dog/. And at this one for a fuller explanation of the use of reinforcement in dog training. https://thehappypuppysite.com/reinforcement-in-dog-training/

I can’t comment on aggression in Orcas or whether or not such aggression is related to training methods. But in dogs there is evidence that punishment based training (even mild punishment) increases aggression. https://thehappypuppysite.com/the-evidence-for-positive-reinforcement-training-in-dogs/

As for the humanity of positive reinforcement training, watching an experienced trainer at work should cast all your doubts aside. There are many great videos and channels on youtube. https://thehappypuppysite.com/top-dog-training-youtube-channels/
On a personal note as a crossover trainer, I have experienced and been involved in both traditional and modern training methods. And I have no doubt which is the more humane. Training with punishment
can generate fear and loss of confidence in many dogs - Jo has explained this very well in her posts
On the other hand, choosing to train a healthy well nourished dog before dinner time, or to even to use their entire days rations as training treats does not cause fear or pain. In fact it generates a huge amount of pleasure for the dog that can last throughout much of the day. Compare that with average ten seconds it takes most labs to scoff their dinner down. Training a hungry dog with food links training and interacting with the handler inextricably to fun and pleasure. It creates confident dogs that clearly adore their handlers and strive to carry out actions that will please them.

Which is largely why there are many crossover trainers like me that have moved or are moving from traditional to modern methods, and a distinct lack of traffic in the other direction...

I understand why you are defending your use of the spray bottle, I would have done the same a few years ago, but the truth is, for most of us anyway, the use of punishment is a path, not a single act. And for many people one type of punishment leads to another. This article explains more about why punishment, even painless punishment like water sprays, is not the best option. https://thehappypuppysite.com/punishment-in-dog-training/

Remember also, that training is ongoing. No dog will carry on doing exactly what you want over the long term without some kind of consequence. It’s a simple and happy matter to keep reinforcing a dog from time to time with food, or fun activities. This is what keeps great behaviours strong.

It’s an unpleasant fact that if you prevent a behaviour through punishment, in many cases you’ll need to top up that punishment at some time in the future. It’s also a fact that dogs become hardened to mild punishments and that the punishment path can become alarmingly harsh before you realise what direction you are headed.

In conclusion, the punishment path is founded in the premise that causing fear is the best way to deter unwanted behaviour, and yet the body of evidence is that positive reinforcement is a better alternative. That's why this forum does not support the use of positive punishment or allow positive punishment to be promoted to our members.

It's also worth remembering that every time we use an aversive in dog training it’s a missed opportunity. A missed chance to learn how to modify behaviour without fear or pain. And a missed chance to put yourself and your dog on a better path. We have encouraged many new members onto this path, so I do hope you’ll read some to that information and come back with any questions you may have.

 

I was reading that article today, and perusing those studies. It's a shame you can only look at the abstracts. All but one (I saw) relied on surveys given to owners (another study I saw not linked in the article specifically mentioned this as a factor which "prevent(s) any strong conclusion from being drawn"). I wonder if owners using positive reinforcement only training would be as likely to self-report behavioral problems?

 

Yes, it’s always going to be difficult I think, to gather evidence on issues like these in a controlled manner. Not least because of the ethical issues around studying the effects of punishment. As most mainstream dog sports, and professional advisory bodies on animal behaviour and training have already switched to positive reinforcement or are in the process of doing so, it's possible that there will not be very much more evidence forthcoming.

Fortunately - we don’t actually need it. It’s possible for anyone to try out modern methods without causing any harm whatsoever to their dog. Most of those crossing over did so by experimenting with modern methods and finding that they work. I started by stumbling across the clicker retrieve when looking for an alternative to force fetch. Nowadays, most young up and coming trainers in many parts of the world have the advantage of using modern methods from the get go. And starting off right is an advantage as old ways die hard

Getting people off on the right start is one of the reasons that this forum is here, and that experienced trainers give up their time to post here and share their knowledge with our new puppy owners. It's also why we have rules about not promoting aversives etc.

From a practical point of view, probably the best thing you can do if you are interested, is to teach your dog something simple such as a hand target, or putting paws in a box, using only positive reinforcement. That way, you’ll be able to see for yourself how fast and effective it is, how much fun it is, and make your mind up if force free training is something you might like to aspire to. If it is - we’re here to help

 

I train Mira to do stuff like that (we're working on looping around my legs now) with positive reinforcement only already. She knows a lot of tricks and she learned them with treats, praise, and the clicker. I think her behavior issues, on walks and otherwise, stem not from punishment but from lack of socialization opportunities (definitely working on it!) and probably immaturity right now.

As far as the research, I don't discount the studies entirely at all. I think it makes total sense to say any animal will learn faster and better with positive reinforcement! But, citing the same research to try to scare people by saying it's a foregone conclusion that the dog will be aggressive, fearful, or severely damage the trainer/owner's relationship with the dog if they use any aversive is...too much. Some of the studies weren't even in total agreement about that. I think one said punishment resulted in aggression in small dogs, not large ones, and another mentioned the dog's age and the dog's life history were also factors in aggression.

That's all I'll say about it, and it's just my opinion. Plus, Mira's bugging me to go out because it's getting to be 8:30 - don't know where she learned to tell time.

 

Hello, it is the first day we have a puppy in the house, he is around two months. He is jumping, likes to bite all the time, to eat trousers, sheets, he has a lot of energy, he needs attention, etc.

I am really feeling frightened, although i decided to have a puppy as a good idea. It is not just fear but also a feeling that if he will use his tongue to touch me I will die. He seems big for me even he is two months.

Do you have a suggestion how not to feel frightened? Wha to do? I am afraid we have to change our decision. Looking forward to hear by you.

 

Hi @Aurela

Welcome to the forum.

It is normal to be nervous.

Knowledge will help to give you confidence. And small steps will enhance your confidence.

Please read the threads here on Crate training, toilet training, and socialisation.

Enrol in a puppy class with a trainer who emphasizes positive reinforcement.

If you are not sure about any step, ask us a question here on this forum.

You will not disappear if he licks you.

 

My puppy gives kisses if I ask her they like to lick you and love lots of cuddles.
I tell my puppy NO when she bites she has learned now and licks and mouths my hand not bites.
They are learning all the time from you as your the substitute parent.

 

Sorry posted in the wrong place.

 

Thank you Michael, I am making some small progress day by day in our bond and confidence.You suggestions was useful for me.
Thanks a lot!

 

Great. I'm happy to hear of your progress. Don't expect a linear progression always upwards. There are valleys, plateaus, and hills, in dog training. Your dog is learning. Sometimes confused by the world at large. And then sometimes progress as she begins to understand our language of markers (clicker or Yes) and body language (smiles, and accommodating warm body profile). If you've got a small hill of progress, then celebrate. You're learning too!

 

You were right Michael, today the progression went downwards.
Our dog (two months old) was at vet today, he took some pills against parazits , he slept for some time after he came back in the apartment, played with a new toy for teething ( a kind of thick rope for teething, I do not know the word in english) and after that he started biting continuously. We live in an apartment, and we have started to separate the dog in his room. We let him only for some minutes separated, hoping he will change the behaviors but he started again biting.
I tried to give another toy for teething aiming not to bite, but without success. He kept the toy for some minutes and then he continued to bite again.

Perhaps separating the dog in his room, make him aggressive? I do not know.
I have the feeling that he will bite me and other members of the family suddenly when we are walking in the apartment. Because if we are face to face we try to give him toys aiming to avoid biting and it is more easier to avoid him.

This is really a step back.

 

He played today for the first time with this toy, (the rope in the mouth (sorry I do not know the word in English) , as the dog in the cover of the book of Pippa, The Labrador handbook.)

 

Hi @Aurela

I would not place too much emphasis on the downturn in behaviour. Some of these medications do affect our dogs quite a bit, and one should not expect good performance when they are not well.

If your dog is carrying the tug as in Pippa's picture, then well done. You can work on retrieving. She's showing you that she likes to carry things.