I have mentioned in a number of my updates that we have been having problems with Dexter when we both walk him. Today we hit a new low on this, we got out of the front door, OH was on the lead and basically we did not all leave the front garden. Dexter would not stop wanting to greet me, jumping up and down manically etc I tried to get him to sit for a treat and then stroke him but immediately afterwards he was manic again. Rather than fight him I went back into the house and my OH and Dexter went for the walk and apparently for the next few minutes he heeled brilliantly as he kept glancing over his shoulder to see if I was following behind rather than taking an interest in smells and things in front of him. It is as if he is terribly over excited or stressed and cannot cope with us both there - most of the time OH walks him about 6.45am each morning, I am with him most of the day and walk him some time in the afternoon and due to the problems when we both walk him we rarely try it now which defeats one of the reasons for having a dog. So the question is - what should we try to do next ? Other than perhaps get a trainer in 1-2-1 to work on it - any suggestions or similar experiences welcomed for ideas ....
Hi @Diablo Try letting him run a bit on the end of a long line so that he can let out some of his excess energy. Do you two walk next to each other? Dog only on left? How fast do you walk? Do you have problems when walking him on your own?
Hi @Michael A Brooks We have tried walking with him in the middle, one side or the other, alternating who is on the lead (tends to want to go to the other one), ahead or behind for the person not on the lead etc. and any improvement does not last once he gets hyper (cannot work out a trigger). As a rule we are a family of fast walkers and only go slow with him to stop him pulling (1 on 1), stopping, turning around etc. When both of us are with him once he loses himself nothing fast, slow or stopped makes any difference as he gets hyper. Has led to one of us then walking off at pace ahead into the distance and he gradually settles again after pulling hard. Walking on our own I have had possibly two occasions since we had him where he has got over excited/stressed and he has jumped up at me and a little frantic but normally he is just over keen on the lead until he is tired on the way back when he slows down. When walking 1 to 1 we only need to say sit as we stop and he sits wherever he is in front of you at the end of the lead, get him to wait until we lead off with heel (off the left foot - off the right he is to stay there per gundog training). Today is the first time we have not even got away from the house before it all started. My concern with a longer lead is he wants to get to whoever is not on the lead so this would make it easier, or should we start off walking further apart and see if he will settle from there and keep out of his range ahead if not holding him ? Appreciate you suggestions Michael as this is getting frustrating.
What happens when the dog is off lead in the backyard, you two are walking side by side, and you or your partner asks the dog to heel? Swap positions? What does the dog do? Heel nicely in between you when the outside person asks for heel position? Is the dog trying to get attention from both of you?
Here is a suggestion. If you can find an area with few distractions, then one person heels the dog. The other person walks parallel (not ahead or behind) but creates a distance that the dog is kept below threshold. Reward the dog for walking nicely. Over many repetitions gradually attempt to reduce the distance between you two. Don't expect a linear progression. One day you might be okay with 100 metres gap, the next session you have to be 110 metres. But if you reward calmness you two should be able over time to get closer and closer.
We have the same issue with Willow if something unnerves her on a walk. We took her to country park where the footpath was very busy with pushchairs people on bikes lots of dog walkers joggers you name it. She starts jumping up at my hubby like she wants to be picked up. We got her to stay down with treats I took her to grass verge where it was more quit and she sat and watched everyone go by. This happens every time a loud noise usually a lorry or construction vehicle passes us. She stops jumping up when we in a more quiet area. When I walk her alone she stops walking and looks at the lorry or noise and does not jump up me. I'm interested to see the solutions Michael offers you here.
Hi @Michael A Brooks thanks for the suggestions - will work on these and see how we go. We both spend time outside with him in the garden but never tried him heeling, but we have never had any behavioural issues when out there. Will probably be back soon !
Hi @Diablo Practise the skill in the backyard and see if you can get closer and closer. It may be the case that when the lead is put on the problem occurs. But unless you have a very large garden you may not be able to achieve enough separation to get the dog's arousal level down. You may have to find another venue to acquire the skill. In either case go to a (another) quiet park and attempt to proof the skill in a different environment
I would just work on your loose-lead walking or heeling using a lot of treats in the presence of another person. Have them sit on a wall outside your house and watch and you heel backwards and forwards. If you can't heel at first, then just click any focus the dog offers you. Every now and again, say 'Go Say Hi' when the dog is looking at you/the handler - and allow them to rush up and 'see' the person. You'll soon find they end up being not that bothered to say hi...
An interesting week or so, with several visitors, recent training session and trying out some of the suggestions.... Basically he seems to get into overloaded excitement very easily and especially once he goes outside the front door. Train him in the back garden with both of us or individually on or off the lead and he is great, heels nicely, does not pull at all and responds to commands etc etc. Walk him outside and on the lead he pulls a lot, you stop and he automatically sits a lead length in front of you, easy to get him to turn and walk round you on command at this point or wait and walk on - for a few paces before he is off again. Walking dead slow, sitting, stopping etc and people must think we are crazy at times but progress is very slow. We took him out together to a location we have visited only once before and unfortunately found they have ground nesting birds Mar to Sep so had to keep him on the lead. However, apart from the moment I cleaned up a poop and took the bag to walk 50yds back to a dog bin and he screamed and yelped and wanted to follow me (eventually sat by OH waiting feverishly) he did nothing worse than pull almost continually. That was therefore a minor success as no real problems between the two of us and there were lots of runners, cyclists and other dog walkers to distract him. Had visitors who are experienced dog owners twice last week (we have very few visitors) and he just goes OTT immediately despite trying several methods to distract, settle him or reward positive behaviour and the cooperation of the visitors. Dog training today (which is outside) was the worst one I have ever taken him to since we had him, would not settle, barking a lot, trying to engage all dogs, owners etc and as it was moving up a class it was hard for me to hear what we should be doing which was more complex activity as he would sit and lunge/bark far too often. Frankly I could have left after 10 minutes and seriously am thinking about not going back for the next 5 classes, which I discussed with the trainer who said just to think he was having a bad day - problem is he always the worst behaved anyway despite his obvious capability to learn and be trained this OTT behaviour is therefore very draining. He comes home exhausted and literally sleeps the rest of the day despite being quite a high energy Labrador. I am also taking him for less walks which involve him getting off the lead due to his charging off too far, I have been choosing the least sociable times to do this to minimise who/what we meet and working hard on recall, marching off in the opposite direction and one thing I can say is he comes flying back and due to the frequency of this gets very tired very quickly which means the later parts of the walk are well within reasonable distance and control and probably recalls quite quickly over 75% of the time and a little more delayed the rest. The ongoing concern (without using a long lead) is what or who he might meet whilst too far away hence he is not getting the opportunity as much. I quite often now only walk to a sports field, I let him off, play with the ball practice a bit of sit/stay/retrieve and sometimes another dog appears to run around with then walk him home with no outings into the woods or just pavement walking. Is all very frustrating at the moment - there is this excitement switch that trips, but when at home he is settled and calm apart from normal puppy moments ....
Hi Diablo What have you been working on in your gundog classes? There should be things you have learnt that you can utilise during your walks to keep his attention and stop him running off (you should be the centre of his universe!). For example, drop a dummy on the track when he's not looking and keep walking. Recall the pup and send him back for it. You could hide things in the side of the track when he's not looking, recall him and hunt him in the area. All these little things should increase his focus on you. Also, any exercises which involve him thinking, will tire him a lot quicker than physical exercise, but prevent him getting over stimulated as he seems to be. Where abouts are you based?
Well, this little throw-away line really stood out. If he is allowed to run around crazily with other strange dogs at some times, in his mind, he is really not going to understand why this isn't possible at class. It might be tempting to use play with another dog as a form of exercise, but you are really just creating more problems for yourself in the long-run. Dogs with excessive frustration about not being able to reach people or other dogs for social contact, have typically a history of being allowed to do just that when younger - often in the name of so-called 'socialisation'. Here's a great article doing the rounds on Facebook at the moment on this very subject: http://playwaydogs.com/we-need-to-s...DMK5WQ83Yab7_7_WByR6oHljCpEGHvdY68YrdV4O-2mEs I would not be allowing a young dog off-leash contact in public with other strange dogs. We go out to 'work' and to focus on me. You should definitely return to the rest of your obedience course, but you need to have more skills to be able to keep his focus and to keep him quiet. I mean, presumably he is able to eat food in class? If you literally put food on his nose and let him eat it, he is eating it? If so, there's no reason at all for him to be barking or uncontrollable, you just need to keep the frequency of reinforcement high enough and fast enough that he is sees it more reinforcing to work with you (constantly) than to attempt to get to other dogs. You should be using the Up and Down Game: At 3min03: Or Look At That, with the other dogs in class being what he is looking at: Don't expect to be able to sit there doing nothing and listening, as other owners may be able to do - you will need to keep him constantly working even during the 'talking' parts of the class at this point. (Source - many years of teaching group classes!) Over time, he will habituate and get used to this environment - especially if, at other times of his life, you are not letting him go running around amok with strange dogs... In my classes, if we have noisy dogs, I say 'right, our next task is to hang out together quietly for 3 minutes - GO'. They can use any means they want to use, to achieve a quiet and focussed dog for 3 minutes. Some dog Look At That, some dog Up and Down, some give their dogs a Kong to eat on the floor. It's up to them and what works best for their dog. If they can do it then, when I tell them it's a formal exercise, they can do it any time they want - they just have to realise they are always training their dog, not only when they stand up to practise something, but all the time they are there.
Did another week of training (which is outside) and his behaviour was almost as bad as the previous session despite all of the attempts to distract or focus him, discussed with the trainer as he is just wired, not listening, not very interested in the treats, wants to sniff at every blade of grass when trying to do tasks, wants to engage other dogs regularly, noisy, trying to join in via barking and or lunging if other dogs doing an individual retrieve or recall and generally just OTT. He is actually so exhausted after the sessions he goes home and sleeps most of the rest of the day. She feels he is lacking maturity at this point in time and to continue the classes will reinforce the bad behaviour for the future and we should take an extended break or go down the 1-2-1 route (not financially viable). Get him at home in the garden and he is attentive, focussed, works at everything and learns quickly but just loses it in classes exactly as he did at puppy training months ago. Given the nightmare hour it has turned into with the worst behaved dog that appears to be out of control it will be a relief to stop. Had to visit the vets for a weigh in last week (26kg at 9 months) and he was off the scale excitement wise as well - hope this is a passing phase. As he is so high energy when let off the lead when walking and charging off to explore, those walks have virtually ceased now though choose unsociable times to take him to avoid runners, cyclists, runners, other dog walkers as much as possible (always returns but not immediately, especially if you march off in opposite direction or hide) and we trundle the streets on the lead to avoid the stress. Shame really, not what I wanted to do with a dog and defeats the object - maybe in a few months he will settle down when out or he will get very bored - very settled dog at home (unless we have visitors) but loses it when outside of this environment.
Hi @Diablo Sorry to hear about the issues. It is true that Labs do take a while to mature, something that tends to be true for medium to large dog breeds. I'm not sure if I understand your dog trainer's advice. Your dog performs very well at home. Lacks complete focus when out around other dogs. How will one on one training resolve the issue? Does the trainer believe you don't know how to train for distractions? Is the trainer going to bring along a decoy dog? Or does your dog lack focus even at home when the when the trainer is present?
Hi @Michael A Brooks I have not discussed 1-2-1 training and what would be involved as too expensive to consider at this point, though if we went a number of months and no improvement we might have to reconsider.
Thanks for the answer @Diablo. I think you will need to do training to deal with distractions rather than just waiting for your dog to get older. I had thought the trainer may have mentioned an outline of what would be done. You have clarified that. I guess a couple of key question are? What things distract your dog? How close can you get to other dogs without your dog losing the ability to focus on your cues?
@Michael A Brooks I really think we are probably going to have to give him a few months before trying any more group sessions. There are several scenarios I would highlight reference what distracts him or losing focus :- On the lead out walking :- Dog across the road - he shows some immediate interest by looking or pulling in that direction but as soon as it is clear no one is meeting up he just walks on. Never barks during this. Dog ahead on the same side - he noticeably tries to pull to catch up - so do tree routine etc and will stop him pulling as much but is more keen and again does not bark. Passing a dog on the pavement, he wants to say hello but as soon as it is clear you are both going your own ways then he walks on - may jump up but has been improving and does not bark. Dog training ...... You walk through the gate and he starts pulling hard and wants to engage with any dog or person in reach so as a rule I walk him into the field and heel/sit work until ready to start and he sniffs around a bit without engaging anyone else. Once we start he simply wants to be doing the whole time, cannot see other dogs doing things he is waiting to do or has already done - lunges generally and makes a lot of noise. Tend to walk him 20/30yds away when doing these activities once he kicks off but does not stop totally, despite working him on sit, down, leave etc with treats to distract. During lesson you are 6 to 8ft apart with a board (trying to get them sit on it) and a stake for each station. Behaviour becomes variable and depends upon neighbouring dogs and his reaction. Once he has lost interest in treats, becomes bored as we listen to trainer he often barks, and may lunge towards a dog to engage them. God forbid the trainer uses a ball or a dummy to demo something as he then gets really excited and barks and lunges in that direction. If he does not settle I would walk him away, turn and either try and set him back on his board or sit 8/10ft back from the station. But tends to turn into a rinse and repeat from either position as he once again barks or pulls hard towards other dogs. Last week I took a position a lot further away from any dog and a latecomer came to sit by me, unfortunately with what is the best trained/behaved dog but she winds him up because the owner has her loose a lot of the time and does advanced work which is more distracting. I hate to say it but the highlight of the session was this dog doing a wait and retrieve with a dummy loose over an extended distance - she did it twice retrieving back to the owner then the second time dropped the dummy and sprinted over to Dexter 40 yards away to get him to play. She knew just who to choose but proved none of them are infallible ..... We go a good distance away from other dogs for practicing and he concentrates for a while but then I know that if I see him peer over his shoulder at the others - if loose (10 yards or more away) I need to recall him immediately or he will think about heading off to try and play with another dog - got 4 of them going in one go last week as he whizzed off before I could engage him on one occasion so very careful about it. if we are working whilst I hold the lead at least 10yds away then he gets on with the task in hand probably because he is doing something and knows he will not be getting away. Hopefully makes some sense.
Thanks @Diablo for the detailed, interesting and honest explanation. I think you two are doing really, really well. For example, I bring out a ball in one of my classes only when the owners are working on getting their dogs to stay when faced with higher and higher distractions--the dogs will already stay for 2 minutes off lead with low to medium distractions before they face the bouncing ball. I want the dogs to succeed, so that the handlers can reinforce their dogs. I would not bring out a ball in a class in which the handlers are still struggling with duration when faced with medium to low distractions. I think you are in a class with dogs that have a wide diversity of training. You should not be judging your dog against the performance of the dogs that are doing better. In fact, don't judge your dog against the other dogs at all. Look for improvement in your own dog from week to week, expecting that progress will be a series of plateaus, hills and valleys. I would urge you to continue with the training. You are doing all the right things. You are using distance to get the dog's arousal level down. It was not your fault that another owner set up close to you when you had already moved back from the other dogs. It's the instructor's job to support you in such instances. As long as you keep rewarding longer and longer bits of focus/attention/stay (yes think in fractions of seconds) then your training will not "... reinforce the bad behaviour". To reiterate: Don't be so hard on yourself. Celebrate. From your description you should be rewarding yourself and Dexter. Your description of how he behaves in the street is really impressive. He is a young dog and he is doing really well. And so are you! Don't give up the training.
Why does he lose interest in treats? What sort of treats are you using? @Diablo it does sound like you have a challenging dog to train around other dogs. Unfortunately some labs are like that, we see them sometimes in class. But I agree with Michael, this is absolutely not a reason to avoid coming to class. The only reason to avoid coming to class is if a dog shows signs of fear or reactivity. In dog training generally, we see people experience problems with things and then we see owners try to deal with this by just avoiding the situation: Gundogs which chase rabbits. Owner tries to avoid places where there are rabbits. Dog which can't be called back away from people. Owner tries to avoid people. Dog which eats horse poop - owner tries to avoid that. And so on. Everything the dog can't cope with, just gets avoided. Problem solved (they think). Except it's not. Avoidance (alone) never addresses the issues at hand. Sooner or later, the 'distraction' occurs again - whether it's people, other dogs, or horse poop - and the dog is uncontrollable in the presence of that distraction. You will encounter whatever the distraction is. Furthermore, you cannot permanently avoid these things and also provide a dog with a good quality of life. Yes, you could keep a dog on leash permanently and never allow the dog off - but that dog is going to end up chronically under-exercised. As evidenced with: All that energy he has, now has even LESS of an outlet and when he gets excited will be even HARDER to deal with... You need to identify what your dog can't cope with (training-wise) and then you need to be tackling those things directly. You actually need to be seeking them out, at distances and in ways your dog can be successful with, and working on it directly. For your dog's quality of life, you can't simply avoid them, and restrict him ever-further. Despite having had many labs like this in class, I can safely say that they have ALL completed their relevant courses and have ALL progressed, been responsive and been focussed on their owners and able to remain quiet during class. I am lucky in that the owners have been very committed and have understood that some things (like the self-control required in stays) is harder for their dog - but they have all gotten there in the end. If your trainer is unable to show you how to train your dog, and is instead suggesting you leave class, that tells you far more about your trainer's limitations and inability to suggest anything else, than it does about your dog. I'd really recommend researching other classes in your area and finding a good and force-free trainer. Even if you could afford 1-2-1s, I'm not sure they would be as useful for you as a well-run class - unless they were to equip you with skills to take forwards into that class. I'm not sure what area you are based in, but if you let us know we can make some suggestions...?
@Jo Laurens @Michael A Brooks thank you both for taking the time to reply a number of times. We did not go to our training on Monday and though 3 lessons remain I am not inclined to attend any more of them. I think that the stress and anxiety that the training etc are causing me personally mean I need to take a step back at the moment as I do not want to put myself into those situations knowing that the outcome is always negative and only increase those feelings. This is something I need to deal with and then look to move forwards in the future when I can be more positive about the likely outcome.
