Hi all, Our black lab in 1 next month and we’re in the midst of adolescence but I want to make sure we’re using the right approaches to make sure we’re not causing trouble for ourselves further down the line. We have a few things we need to address, firstly his recall with no distractions in a field is pretty much spot on, if he wavers we hide or change direction and he soon comes back.. when there’s another dog it’s a different story. If we can catch him before he starts to go and throw a ball then he much prefers his ball .. this was working perfectly until 2 months ago when he broke his toe running after his ball and now we’re really cautious not to throw far enough for him to sprint and try and make it more of a ‘sit, wait, find’ game but he has got terrible with giving the ball back. We normally take 2 balls with us and use the second as a lure, make him give the first one and pick it up before engaging with the second but today we forgot the second ball and it took us 20 minutes for him to drop the ball ( we gave ‘give’ command twice then walked off in opposite direction so not to make it a chase game, he ran 10 metre circles around us showing the ball but when asked to sit or any other command he’d bounce off again with his ball). Around the house his give is pretty much spot on and we play ‘give’ a lot to help reinforce the command. We rotate high value treats and praise when he does finally get it right but we were not in control of him at all today and it felt like we had stepped back a few months. we do have a long line but he gets so tangled in it that it becomes more of an obstacle than a help and we will now remember the second ball more than ever but it seems the second ball is purely a lure as oppose to him listening to our commands. My concern is if we’d have seen another dog we’d have been left open to him running to see it with our only tactic already in his mouth and also I hate the idea of him stealing another dogs ball and us having the same situation of not being in control enough to get it back. Do we continue with two balls on the walk and reinforcing as much as possible in the garden? Or are the better ways to manage it? Should we be doing other recall training so we’re not reliant upon a ball to help distract from other dogs? thanks in advance
Initially you should make your give cue a simultaneous exchange. You are using a sequential process, which requires the dog to form a belief that you will honour the implicit contract. And it seems you have not built enough trust so far. You can make it sequential later on. You can use running away when first teaching a puppy. But you have to move on from that. Use a long line so that you can prevent walkabout, which will be self-rewarding. Don't repeat cues. And only gradually introduce distractions. You and your dog at one side of a large park. Other side, the distractions. Only move closer when you've had successful repetitions.
Thanks Michael. On a normal walk when we have 2 balls we play with one ( sit, wait, find ball, fetch) then ‘give’ and pick up before using 2nd ball but he will only give when the 2nd ball is in sight. Should we continue with this to reinforce the trust of him getting a second ball? he gives around the house/garden but we have special balls used only on a walk which he is far far more excited about and as we found out today he’s just not willing to give it up without the promise of the 2nd ball. When we finish play we pick up the ball give a treat and say ‘finished’ but he’s always more interested in his ball than the treat no matter what it is, do you think he’s always on high alert that we will be finishing the game? We’re finding the long lead tough, he wraps himself around it in and we spend most the time trying to untangle him or working around bushes and trees.. we need to work on our long lead skills too it would seem. We’ve mainly had him off lead in fields and until recently his recall has been good so he’s been used to sniffing around in bushes and everywhere until we call him back (multiple times at random throughout the walk) We’ve tried to keep a good distance from other dogs to limit distractions and whereas over winter we would see maybe 1-3 dogs on a walk now all the fair weather walkers are out the fields are dotted with dogs all over the place ( not sure where they were all getting walked over winter) We try to drive to quiet places but it turns out everywhere is busy so we’re struggling to keep a good distance now. The ball was working a treat in a way of distraction but if we can’t control is ball play and recall when he’s over excited with his ball then I’m concerned we’re going to damage the commands we’ve already taught him. thank you for your advice!
I need to ask a few questions before offering some remarks on your helpful and extensive reply. You use a ball with Are you using a ball as a reinforcer? What word do you use as a mark? If so, what conditioned reinforcer word do you use when using food treats? What material is your long line? How long is it?
We have a 10 metre nylon long line... we used it when he was a puppy learning recall and then again when he was on restricted exercise after breaking his toe. In the house/garden we play fetch with a rope toy and he will fetch and give on command, we then make him sit and wait whilst we throw it and tell him to fetch again. He does this well and has no issue giving, we praise him at each step but his reward is that it is thrown again for him. We tell him ‘finished’ when we finish play and he picks it up and gives 2/3 times which we don’t react to then understands play time is over. On his walk we use 2 balls, when we throw one and he fetches and brings it back but will not give unless he can see other ball. We say ‘give’ when we know he will succeed as he’s dropping the ball. Pick that ball up ask him to sit, wait then throw the 2nd ball. He won’t give the first ball for any treat only if he knows he’s getting the 2nd ball. When we finish play we have to do as normal as if we’re about to throw the 2nd ball but instead we say ‘finished’ and give him a treat. We praise with ‘good boy’ at every step he achieves on every occasion. It seemed to be working well until we forgot the 2nd ball and he had no interest at all of giving up the first one. We didn’t want it turn into a game of chase so tried to ignore it after he ignored the command twice and he was clearly well over his threshold but it took so long for him to drop the ball.. and that wasn’t at a command, he just got too involved in a good smell and we managed to get the ball. Once the ball was gone he recalled well and sat when asked ( although no other distractions)
Hi Bertie_Lab I apologise for not replying sooner. 1. If I read your account properly I don't believe you are user a conditioned reinforcer. I think it is a huge mistake to not use one (a click or a marker word). It makes communication so much easier across the species. Communication is a key component of dog trainer. 2. In the give exercise you should be using instrumental conditioning, which essentially means the consequence follows the behaviour. At the moment you have the consequence (the ball used for exchange) before the behaviour. You have to stop teaching your dog that the ball in one hand is part of the cue. Unfortunately, I believe you have classically conditioned that as part of your cue. For that reason, I would be inclined to use another cue, such as Mine and start again teaching your dog to release the item to you. For the first 5 reps the dog can see the ball as you teach the dog the meaning of mine and yours (the ball you give in exchange). But after five reps, put the ball behind your back, out of sight. Say mine. And wait to see whether your dog will give up the ball. Then reveal the exchange ball from behind your back. If successful repeat say 5 times. Then put your exchange ball out of sight on top of the fridge. Say mine. If dog gives it to you, say your marker word here Yours, then with all the pomp and ceremony you can muster, tell the dog you are now going to find that exchange ball. Do this in one room. Successful? Now move to another room in the house, where you may have to start teaching the whole concept again. Then on the back balcony. Then the garden. Slowly introduce distractions. At other times you will use the marker word, Yes, which means food follows the giving up rather than another ball. See note 4 about food value. 3. I suggest you get a biothane long line, it is a slippery material, and less likely to get caught by twigs and such. Let it trail across the ground. Only pick it up, if you think your dog is going into walkabout and/or you are losing sight of your dog. Until you are 100% certain your dog will follow your cue, do not let him off the long line. And don't let the long line stray too far from you. It's your management tool. Alternate between the two types of reinforces for successful recall. But do it randomly. No pattern should be evident to the dog. 4. Praise is not working very well with your dog. You need to find more valuable reinforcers. Perhaps a game of tug. Or a food treat of something deliciously enticing. Sardines and low-fat creamed chesse. Something wet, and smelly and yummy.
Thank you! We will certainly try this. And you are completely correct that on walks we have used the 2nd ball as part of the process Do you have any advice for if he doesn’t respond well after 5 reps? At the moment ‘give’ works perfectly in the house/garden/ other peoples gardens with dogs around without any form of lure or 2nd ball, it’s only on walks that he he reluctant to give on command which is where the 2nd ball came into play. I’m wondering how to move from a distraction of someone else’s garden with a dog to a walk with no distractions successfully. I will try the new reinforcer of ‘mine’ over the next week and see if that transfers to giving on his walk. thank you very much for your time and advice!
My idea was to abandon give as a cue. It's not working beyond your home. Mine and Yours is just a different set of cues but hopefully you can teach the desired behaviour. I said 5 reps because I want you to eliminate the lure as soon as you can. If you need more, then that is fine. But eliminate the bribe sooner rather than later.
