Recently I've made some quite interesting observations on how my dogs react to the body language and signals given off by other dogs. Well I think they're quite interesting. We have reduced our distance before reaction to about 2 metres. As long as we have more than 2 metres between us and a dog I can be 90% sure my dogs won't react. 5 metres or more and they aren't particularly interested at all no matter what the other dog is doing. 2 metres or less and it depends on the behaviour of the other dog. Unfortunately that's what makes our lane dicey when meeting/passing other dogs. It's only about 2 metres wide. :-\ Somewhere a long the line I've picked up what signals another dog gives off that makes my dogs react. I now have a very good idea what will happen as we get near. A dog that gives off calm signals and shows only minor interest gets no reaction at all just a cursory glance. A reactive dog within 2 metres will get a reaction back. Recently I've noticed more subtle signals. Over the summer we've been meeting the dog from the end if the lane. Not met it for 18 months but Mr is on a health kick. : . 2metre rule applies because it STARES. It doesn't do anything else it's a friendly dog as far as I know but it STARES even I think its a bit unnerving. More than 2 metres away S&S aren't interested in it. This morning on our long walk we were approaching a lady with two dogs talking to a lady on a bike. The dogs were on leads but weren't being controlled very well. When they saw us the dogs stopped messing about and stood staring at us approaching. Poor Scott & Scout were giving off calming signals left, right and centre. Looked at me, licked lips, looked other way, looked down. The only one they didn't do was yawn. They kept doing this upto about 10 metres when I guess the adrenalin started to pump, their head came up big and they stared back. The other dogs had just kept staring back. Scout grumbled a bit which was when the woman asked if she should get going ahead. I replied that would make it easier. : It occurred to me though that my dogs would have been thought by these two women as being aggressive towards the other dogs because my dogs would have barked/growled/lunged as we passed but in dog language my dogs hadn't started it they'd actually done everything right the other dogs were being rude. Maybe my dogs aren't nervous aggressive maybe they just have very good manners and expect the same back. PS. You could substitute the word strange human for dog through out the above. The reaction is very similar. Direct eye contact or lack of it is very important to my dogs. :
Re: It's rude to stare I think it depends on the age of the dog as to what this means - and the other signals given off. A predatory stance and stare, the sort of "lock eyes" thing is different I think from what most friendly young dogs that are interested in other dogs do - I'd say look over very hopefully - particularly when on lead. If off lead there would be something else going on, but on lead it's about what's left to them. At the communications class I go to, every dog under 2 seems fascinated with the other dogs and when on lead do look over at each other very eagerly - some could be said to be staring but I wouldn't say the other dogs find it threatening. The teaching dogs also look at all the other dogs, but more "looking around" at everyone in a more relaxed and casual way, and a few rescue dogs look a bit "shut down" and studiously ignore the other dogs.
Re: It's rude to stare I would say the body language that goes with the stare is what gives it away as to what the stare means. These dogs werent displaying lets play body language to go with their stare. To be fair the dog from the end of the lane was hampered by its owner who still hasn't taught her to walk on a lead so has to keep her close, head up or he gets towed. A case of the human affecting dog language but it's not S&S fault she's possibly giving off the wrong message through no fault of her own. Not including pups and young dogs shouldn't a dog respond appropriately to another giving off calming signals ? Isn't that the point of calming signals ? A dog tells the other I'm not comfortable with you the other responds with either a calming signal back or it doesn't. Maybe I'm wrong and I don't know the right signals.
Re: It's rude to stare I don't often see much sensible interaction of signals on lead, to be honest - it's a very artificial way for dogs to meet, a dog on lead has very few options and that gets in the way. Most adult dogs that aren't reactive, and have their lead walking proofed - will just glance at another dog and more or less ignore it whatever it's doing.
Re: It's rude to stare So there's no point learning calming signals etc if they are being shown on lead as that is artificial ? I don't think I have an affect on my dogs giving calming signals, unless I cue look at me. I agree being on a lead can cause a dog to give off a more dominant signal than it would like, like the dog from the end of the lane, but I'm not sure how it affects calming signals. Apart from a dog being on a lead is stuck and can't get away so has to deal with what is coming. ??? Ok so the lead affects the signals and body language but should'nt a calming signal get a response whatever the circumstance or the fact a lead is involved means they arent communicating naturally so you can't use their body language as a method of judging their response ?
Re: It's rude to stare Well, I think you are doing something very particular and special with your dogs. Most people aren't though, their dogs aren't acting freely on lead and major signals like turning away, arcing and so on just are not possible on lead. When Charlie was nutty on lead and I went to the gundog trainer to proof his lead walking, her dogs ignored him, no matter what - he could have had calming signals in neon lights (not that he did) and they would still have ignored him.
Re: It's rude to stare [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7791.msg109004#msg109004 date=1410537340] Well, I think you are doing something very particular and special with your dogs. Most people aren't though, their dogs aren't acting freely on lead and major signals like turning away, arcing and so on just are not possible on lead. [/quote] I agree, dogs only really speak 'dog' off lead. On lead they rely on us to 'take the lead'
Re: It's rude to stare I think the other dogs were rude/displaying 'in your face' behaviour' and that S and S's reactions can be explained by that. I think you can substitute 'polite human trying to be normal' and 'weird scary human' for the respective doggie parties. On lead is definitely different to off lead, and dogs are certainly noticing our responses on lead (particularly lead tension) but I don't think doggie attempts at communication stop or normal dog language fails to apply. Dogs have a different posture on lead (eg leaning forward, straining at lead) and also have fewer escape options and I think those are factors. Wish we knew what it was all like from their perspective - it'd be so much easier....! Jen, you're doing great if they can cope with 2 metres. Really impressive.
Re: It's rude to stare Thanks Rachael. ;D I was starting to get confused. :-\ Everything I've read (and that's everything I've been able to find) about reactivity bangs on about calming signals so I was starting to wonder why if the calming signals on lead arent real, if that makes sense. :-\ I don't think calming signals off lead are mentioned much when trying to desensitise a reactive dog. Well not straight away anyway. : We seem to be doing well at reducing the distance S&S react at. As always though I don't like tempting fate. :. We've also made progress in them approaching people. I ask the person to stand still and avoid eye contact then I say to S&S are you going to go and say hello and they go and sniff the person. So far so good. ;D. Obviously I only do it with people I know that they react to. Strangers might find it weird. :.On Three different occasions they have gone to a lady I know sniffed her hand and Scott has even licked it. Before they barked at her if she just shifted her weight !!! ;D
Re: It's rude to stare Dogs find direct eye contact very threatening, from other animals as well as humans. This is why the best way to approach a nervous dog is side on without looking directly at it - you are less of a threat. I guess the same goes for other dogs. It sounds like Scott and scout did everything right - they found the eye contact from the other dogs intimidating so did everything they could think of to diffuse the situation by giving out their calming signals trying to get the other dogs to break eye contact. When that didn't work the next step is progress further along the scale which would be showing teeth, growling etc as a warning to stay away. Some dogs may progress from this to a bite or attack; obviously if they are on a lead this manifests with lunging towards the threat and therefore being perceived as aggressive, when in fact they have done everything they can think of to get rid of what is frightening them and it hasn't worked so they have to resort to more drastic methods. Penny is very, very similar to your two - if the other dog just gives her a passing glance and then goes about it's business she is fine, and this is the sort of interaction I hope for as it is a good experience for her. However if the dog reacts to her she will react. If the other dog shows what she feels to be too much interest in her she will react - often this is merely eye contact which a lot of dog owners will miss and, as you have mentioned Jen, our dogs are the ones who get labelled as aggressive even though technically the other dog started it by showing threatening behaviour which wasn't picked up on by the owner. The absolute worst are collies - Penny absolutely hates them. I don't know why - she's never had a bad experience with one, so I can only assume it's the 'collie eye'. They make a living out of staring down sheep so it seems only right that they are naturally very 'starey' dogs.
Re: It's rude to stare I can understand why penny wouldn't like collies they do tend to stare and always seem ready to round anything up. It hadn't really occurred to me before that in terms of dog language and how dogs communicate my dogs do what they are supposed to before they react. It's just more often than not, especially with humans, they don't get the right response back so because they are nervous feel the need to go to the next level. For example if a human they aren't sure of approaches but doesn't make eye contact with them or take much notice of them they don't react at all. They will remain calm and behave like a 'normal' dog only a few steps away from the person. Like you said Lauren I guess a lot of owners don't pick up on body language and what signals their dog is giving off. Owners of reactive dogs like us learn by default. : As we approached the two dogs yesterday I kept thinking I wish she'd turn her dogs away or just move them so it breaks their stare.
Re: It's rude to stare Riley gets locked into the hard stare sometimes. I try to break it and we're working on his look at me for many reasons. I'm never offended when this causes other dogs to react. Strangely though for some dogs, even quite a way off, Riley will lie down. I wish I understood these things better!
Re: It's rude to stare I wish I understood these things better as well Barbara. :-\ Ive been wondering when S&S don't give an obvious calming signal as we approach something what that means. ??? I have been assuming they are passed the point of calming signal and ready to move to the next level but I suppose it could be that they don't feel the need to display a calming signal because they don't feel threatened. ??? Complicated. :-\ Still I suppose cueing look at me in those situations won't do any harm whatever the mean. :
Re: It's rude to stare [quote author=Jen link=topic=7791.msg109267#msg109267 date=1410639205] I have been assuming they are passed the point of calming signal and ready to move to the next level but I suppose it could be that they don't feel the need to display a calming signal because they don't feel threatened. ??? [/quote] I think it's this. There is no need to give calming signals with no aggressor. As with people - we don't need to talk down those who are not 'up' if you see what I mean I have a non-reactive dog and on lead she never gives calming signals unless the other dog is actually baring its teeth. All other behaviour seems to be taken as 'normal' and ok by her when on lead and she walks on by. She looks to me to take the lead and, so long as I am confident, she is. Off lead, if she meets a staring collie or other dog, she gives a few 'let's play' bows and then gives up if the dog doesn't want to play (which is 90% of the time with collies). Off lead her first reaction to any dog is 'lets's play' and of course - it's usually labs and staffies which want to play I have yet to see a small terrier type give calming signals - they either want to play or they yap, growl and bare their teeth. Tatze plays with the former and walks past the latter (she has been bitten twice by small dogs so gives the growly ones a wide berth). Years ago we had a reactive collie (my brother's dog) that was a nightmare, I couldn't walk him off lead at all if other dogs were around
Re: It's rude to stare Thanks Mags. I think one of the problems I have is I'm now so conditioned to them reacting I assume that's what is going to happen. At one time it was what would happen. I think I now need to start to trust them more to behave appropriately. They have improved a lot and I know the situations when they are most likely to react. Perhaps with the grey area situations I should just go with the flow. ???
Re: It's rude to stare This morning was a good example of how much they've improved and how perhaps I should trust them more. On our walk a lady was jogging towards us on our side of the road. I say jogging I think I was walking faster. ;D. She moved over just enough to pass us so still close and as she passed commented on how good my dogs were !!!!!! I did a double take looking from her to my dogs back to her and had to agree !!!!! Not that long ago someone running towards us on our side of the road and staying so close would have got at least their full attention, big head etc. This morning they just trotted along at heel and gave her a polite glance !!! So yes she was right they are good dogs. Well at that moment in time.
Re: It's rude to stare It might take you a little time to catch up with their progress Jen and actually realise how good they are ;D I think that's pretty understandable when you have been through their really reactive stage but look at the progress you have made,really,well done.Youve helped so many other members as well as you've worked through their issues ,big cheer xxx
Re: It's rude to stare Definitely a moment to bask in, so bask away! Well done Scott and Scout and Jen!!
