Well....it almost ended in tears this morning! Hubby took the dogs out, around 6.45am. He takes them to Wapley common, about a mile away through the lanes, but you can walk there from our back garden, it is only about 4 acres (a paddock away...) So a good walk, both dogs well behaved. Until... just at the end of the walk, by the gate which leads onto a lane, opposite some allotments and then a row of terrace cottages. A golden retriever emerges....she is on season, slips her lead and runs towards Benson and Casper. Another dog, no owner to be seen comes out of nowhere. Mayhem. The bitch runs of home...closely followed by Benson who actually hurdles a few fences, crosses a road and ends up in their back garden! :-[ :-[ :-[ We went there last night, and clearly at the end of the walk Benson was distracted...now I know why, it looked like he had caught a scent....what a nightmare... I will have to reconsider the pros and cons of neutering, was really not fun this morning for hubby! The problem is I really feel Benson is just too young right now...
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Lots of sympathy, Kate. You've had a rough time with Mr Teenage Benson lately. All dogs are going to be different, obviously, and it might be the case that Benson is better off castrated. But, the thing is, that you are worried about his recall and his ability to stick by you come what may, anyway. If he is not recalling successfully and paying attention to you without high distractions, he isn't going to do so when he gets a whiff of a girl in season. It might be that adding the risk he'll sniff a bitch in season to this tricky period in his "objection to recall" life is something you just don't need right now. And that's more than fair enough. There are certainly lots of people who think it's just a completely unnecessary thing to struggle with. But it is possible to control some entire male dogs even in densely populated areas where bitches in season walk - I do it, I can spot the nose down, fast run, "I've smelled that delicious smell" but my stop and recall work. I'm not saying this to be smug, I'm just saying training, not castration, might be the answer. Not all dogs are going to be the same, and I think Charlie is pretty easy around bitches and I know it's not going to be the same for all dogs, I know. Why not chat to your vet about the options? I've heard of several people trying the drug suprelorin - it might be an option for Benson temporarily? I'm sure there are pros and cons of course....
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. What a nightmare What did the owners of the bitch say? Surely they have to take some ownership since they clearly didn't have her secured well enough? You certainly have a lot going on at the minute don't you x I know how much you wanted to keep Benson entire.....don't rush into anything as you might regret it later x
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Sympathies. I would also say don't rush into anything... Clearly the fault of the Golden's owner.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8678.msg122772#msg122772 date=1415613775] Lots of sympathy, Kate. You've had a rough time with Mr Teenage Benson lately. All dogs are going to be different, obviously, and it might be the case that Benson is better off castrated. But, the thing is, that you are worried about his recall and his ability to stick by you come what may, anyway. If he is not recalling successfully and paying attention to you without high distractions, he isn't going to do so when he gets a whiff of a girl in season. [/quote] I view the training recall, as a separate to the issue re: running off to a bitch in season. We also recognise that due to knee op last week, I have been unable to train Benson, everything has been a bit hectic with me being in hospital. This comes at a time when Benson needs more intensive training sessions. I am sure hubby will be the first to admit he just pops their leads on and off he goes in the morning, and isn't as intuitive to the signals that Benson subtly gives on a walk. He doesn't really do much training on his morning walk,he doesn't have time.Training happens at weekends when we both work together on the dogs. The dark nights drawing in also don't help, as we just can't nip across to the fields for a quick training session in the evenings, I think we may be struggling over the next couple of weeks. Will have to be creative at finding a little more time for 1 - 1's with Benson, even if it is a few minutes here and there. I am sure it will be easier when I am back on my feet! I have investigated another gun dog trainer/behaviourist I am going to try, who uses C&T so going to book some sessions. Also will be looking at some residential courses next year for him, particularly interested in some of the training that you (Julie T) have been working through with Charlie especially the communication courses . We will work through this, no one said it was going to be easy with two dogs! :
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. I wasn't being critical Kate, all I was saying is it's not necessarily right to jump to the answer that he gets castrated. If you don't think training (when that's possible for you) will help, then of course the other options are castration or never having Benson off lead if there is a chance there might be a bitch in season. It's not straightforward keeping an entire male dog with a pet lifestyle and using pet dog walking areas. But it can be done. No doubt, as I said, how easy that is depends on the individual dog.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Oh man,it gives you a fright,I bottled it after my first and only scare...Dexters power and determination frightened me....he could have been taken away from me if the unthinkable had happened so I couldn't risk it....I lack confidence in my training abilities so I couldn't have trusted training to save me..... Dexter was about 9 months when we did our husky and sled manoevre in the park but he ended up being 13 months when he was finally neutered.....earlier than I would have liked but we took advantage of the GA he was having for his tail op. I'm curious what the neighbour said to an amorous Benson when he appeared in the garden....
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. My boy I entire as well but there was no doubt in my mind that if any behaviour issues appeared that would be remedied by neutering and I didn't think I could train him past it to the vet he would go! Neutering doesn't make you a bad person or trainer and keeping your dog intact doesn't make you irresponsible. You just need to decide (the hardest bit!) and understand the implications of your decision be that health, training or nutrition ;D Good luck with your decision!
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Gosh Kate, what a fright you must have got. SO glad you weren't walking him at the time., you and your poor knee. Its good news that nothing "unbecoming" happened but I can empathise with you on this one. I was so terrified of ending up with unwanted puppies there was no way I was risking Lilly so she was always going to be spayed as early as the vet would take her. Just as well as the farm dog is intact and has a distinct wanderlust habit. He is just following his natural instincts though, and this isn't something that you can easily proof against. And he IS a teenager. I wouldn't rush into things either with Benson, maybe just give it a little while to see how things go. At the end of the day, if you can't relax on a walk without worrying he is going to leg it after a bitch in season, then it might be right for you. Like a lot of this stuff, there is no absolute right or wrong way to do it. jac
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Part of me thinks is unfair to keep a dog entire if there is a bitch/bitches nearby and he ends up very frustrated. Life can still be full if the dog is castrated, food, walks, training, scents.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8678.msg122862#msg122862 date=1415633057] Part of me thinks is unfair to keep a dog entire if there is a bitch/bitches nearby and he ends up very frustrated. [/quote] I think it only depends on the physical reaction of the individual dog - so it's obvious how they are coping (or not). I do not believe they have the same complex emotional sexual frustration as humans.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Some do and even worse! They can't eat, they howl, they are restless; but others may not come across bitches and some are less sexed.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Kate, you're going to have to do some reading up on this one before you make a decision. There's quite a lot of research that suggests that the blanket 'neutering' approach is not necessarily the healthiest thing for all dogs. It is however a very individual thing, with lots of perspectives to be taken into account. Whatever you decide, Benson will be a happy boy, with or without all his 'bits'!
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=8678.msg122868#msg122868 date=1415633678] Some do and even worse! They can't eat, they howl, they are restless; but others may not come across bitches and some are less sexed. [/quote] We are probably talking at cross purposes about the meaning of "sexual frustration". What you describe is a physical thing - that's my point, by observation you can tell how a dog reacts so you know whether he is coping or not. Removed from the proximity of a female in season, I do not believe that male dogs continue to long for sexual encounters as humans might (as frustration is driven by emotions, and a lot more than just the immediate smell of females). Anyway. Ahem. Probably going somewhat off topic...
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8678.msg122870#msg122870 date=1415634155] [ Anyway. Ahem. Probably going somewhat off topic... [/quote] ;D ;D ;D
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. I thought I agreed with you JulieT ;D In that dogs did not yearn for sexual encounters as humans might, but then thought of dogs who hump cushions and legs (not that mine ever had). However, I do understand what you mean, BUT if there is a bitch in season nearby the dog will try to find her. 'Tis nature ;D
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. I agonised over neutering Snowie. Had read a lot about allowing him to become fully grown (some said 18 months, others said 2 years) before neutering and reducing the sex hormones. I live in an area where almost everyone neuters so I've only ever come across 3 bitches in season in almost 3 years. In all those incidents, Snowie went crazy, howled and pulled with unbelievable strength. In two incidents when we were walking on leash, I walked him literally around the corner, and he was back to his normal self. In the one incident we were out on a trail, I put him on leash and we got far enough away that he didn't try to run back to the bitch on heat, but he continued to be unusually interested (in the humping sense) in a couple of other neutered dogs that we passed. (Incidentally, it is illegal in our area for a bitch on heat to be in any public space, off-road trails or the road included.) He is now almost three and still intact. He has a sweet personality and always avoids conflict, so from a personality point of view, I have never had a need to consider neutering. His recall is inconsistent and sometimes non-existent if the distraction is too appealing, but I put that down to training, or rather, lack thereof. (I am inspired by some posts that talk about getting 1 on 1s with a trainer -- something I should consider!) I am glad I did not rush into neutering him at 6 months when the dog school recommended it as a blanket approach to all the dogs there, male or female. I guess they are concerned about unwanted litters, and I agree with that concern and am extremely vigilant when I see Snowie pay unnecessary attention to a bitch, and always enquire if the bitch is spayed. (Interestingly, I met a breeder on the beach with an intact female, and when I showed my concern that Snowie is intact so I should put him on the leash, she said not to worry, that mating is so difficult, he would never be able to mount this bitch without someone's help. I suppose breeders are more concerned with making puppies than avoiding them! Suffice to say, the bitch did not let him near her (anyway, she was not in heat) and he became more interested in participating in the game with the other Labs to retrieve the ball in the sea.) As for humping an inanimate object (pillow, etc) or someone's leg or arm, Snowie has done neither. Wishing you an easy decision, either way. I know for me I thought long and hard about it, agonised over it, read every article I could find, and had to deal with some people telling me otherwise not always in the nicest way. I am not against neutering and will consider it if our individual circumstance requires it. But for now, Snowie stays intact.
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. The only reason I did it was that both boys had a discharge which was unpleasant around the house, up the walls and on the doors!
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. Thank you MF, that was a very interesting and thoughtful reply. At the moment I can see absolutely not reason to castrate Benson, he is shy, a little submissive, just a gentle boy. Other dogs don't really bother him, at the slightest hint of an altercation Casper (our rescue) is in there, bristling, growling and in no incertain terms telling the other dog his attention and attitude are not appreciated! ;D
Re: May have to revisit the subject of neutering.. You're welcome, Kate! I meant to also mention Snowie's two brothers. One of them was humping his owner's leg a lot at six months. Her remedy was to have him neutered. She said he stopped humping her leg thereafter. But she also had two young kids and a third on the way so, while I don't really know what kind of training, exercise, or mental stimulation this boy received because they lived in a different city to us, I suspect not much. Snowie's other brother was neutered at one year. And it did nothing to reduce his exuberance. He and Snowie are the same: always enthusiastic to meet and play with all the dogs in class, generally not model students! His brother was neutered because he'd been stolen (and thankfully found), but due to worrying that this boy might be stolen again because he was intact (horrible dog fighting syndicate), the police recommended he be neutered to protect him from being stolen again (he spends the day in a garden, with someone at home all day, but the fear of having him stolen again was too much for his owner, hence neutering him). When Snowie was 1.5 years old, he was really difficult to handle on a leash; he was very powerful. He hated the head halter (which was good for stopping him race off), but he would stick his head into my legs while we walked to try to remove it, sometimes pushing me off balance. I eventually came across the redirectional harness (made by Halti) and it made all the difference to being able to hold him back on walks. Of course I should've trained him to walk nicely on a leash, but unfortunately I chose the wrong dog school at first, so when we eventually did find a lovely dog school at 1.5 years old, he was so powerful that I needed a harness that would help me control him while I was trying to train him to walk nicely. We are still working on it! At two years old he actually calmed down, and now, at almost three years old, he is delight, recall much improved, walks better on a leash. When he was that exuberant 1.5 year old, I never thought he would calm down, and everyone said to neuter him to calm him down. Except the owner of his brother, who said that her boy was as exuberant intact or not. Interestingly, it seems that Snowie is calmer now than his neutered brother.
