This whole thing of taking on a rescue dog is tricky, and I am losing my confidence. Here is what happened today, and what I need help with. Back to normal routine after his day at the vet, except for the stupid cone, of course! But he's tolerating it fairly well, I think. 3 walks, morning, noon, and evening, none over 40 minutes. I make him sit and wait as I open door to leave on walk and when we get home, and make sure I enter first and then invite him in. He's catching on to that pretty well. With the experience at the vet's yesterday coupled with the fact that he's snapped at all of us at one time or another, I have decided to ban the "tuggy" game for now. Although he does love it. But I don't want to engage in rough play with him. Also tonight I got his dinner ready, then put it high up and made him wait while the family ate. Then I fed him. Thus trying to show him in "wolf language" his place in the pack. During the day, between our walks, he's been resting or going out in the yard for a sniff and explore. After our walk tonight, we did some sit/lie down, sit/lie down exercises. He did fine. But as he was lying down, he suddenly refused to "sit" and barked at me. So, okay, time to end the training. But I did do one more sit which he did fine, gave him a treat for it and a "good boy". Didn't want to end it with him barking at me and me backing down. We went downstairs and I gave him a Nylabone but then realized he would not be able to grip it with his paws due to the cone. So I held it for him while he chewed for a moment. : But I could see he was getting a bit frustrated with it, so I took him upstairs again and distracted him with a "sit" and put the bone away unobtrusively. Went back downstairs, thought I would play the "fetch" game with the ball which he was getting the hang of yesterday, or so I thought. Sat on the couch and threw the ball. He went and got it, came back, would put his mouth in my open hand but would not give the ball. Okay, wasn't going to "tug" the ball away, so I got up to leave. Next thing I know he's jumped up on the couch and when I say "no, Simba, down" he barks and when I say "no! Off!" and snap my finger at him, he snaps at me. I say "no, bad dog" forcefully, and "off!" and he jumps at me, would have been a body slam if I hadn't moved away. I saw teeth too. Then I was frightened, but I didn't want him to think so! So I stood over him and said a very stern "NO! BAD DOG!" then turned my back on him and walked away, ignoring him. HE seemed to settle down, and was sitting at my feet going for all the things he shouldn't as I typed this the first time....somehow pulled at my router and disconnected internet and I lost this whole post and am rewriting. Sigh. So, what is this? We have noticed that in the evenings he seems to have his "manic phase" as we call it. Snatching something he shouldn't have, jumping up on couch (which had been decreasing, and when he had jumped up he would move off when I said "no" and did the snapping finger thing), etc. But tonight you could just see it in his eyes that he wanted to push the boundaries and see how far he got. Well he got too far, in my opinion. What to do? Is this "playing"? Or aggression? Should I be worried? Truly 98% of the time he is gentle and even tempered. But I can't have a dog I'm afraid of, and I have to admit at this point I'm feeling a bit uneasy. Anyone else with a "rescue" been through this?
Re: Agression? Help! Oh gosh Lisa....as usual ,my opening statement to you....'I haven't any experience of this but I know other members will be able to help you' I can totally put myself in your position though and know your heart must have been pounding .i think you did absolutely marvelously. Whilst there are obviously things that need addressing in your post,there is also a lot of positive progress.its hard to know what his actions are demonstrating,is it attempts at dominance,is it fear,is it just a bit of grumpiness that needs sorting... 'I make him sit and wait as I open door to leave on walk and when we get home, and make sure I enter first and then invite him in. He's catching on to that pretty well....... He is responding to you with this and it's a situation where you are making him realize he's not in charge,and there is progress there. 'I have decided to ban the tuggy game for now' good idea anyway with the cone on but again he's not getting something he likes and it's you that is controlling that which puts you in charge in his eyes.i have read also that tuggy games if played should be won by the human......Er nigh on impossible from what i have experienced,and I think gun dogs that are going to work wouldn't be playing them I've read about delaying the feeding too as being a way to teach a dog it's place so you are doing so much to consolidate his position. In the lead up to the snapping at you I can only see 2 potential flash points....the barking at the end of training and removing his chew bone,as a novice I feel you dealt with both really well,others may have a different view though that might help you. You have snapped your fingers at him before with no negative reaction from him but could his previous owner have done it and scared him?the answer to what happened lies in why did it happen.....is it a security thing?e felt safe on the couch and was threatened by being made to come down? The ignoring tactic for behaviours you dont want is mentioned a lot when I'm reading ,so again I think in a stressful situation when you were frightened you reacted calmly and correctly. I don't know an awful lot about Simba's background ,if there has been little/no training he has no knowledge of boundaries and you sound like you are taking a really considered approach in implementing them. I know you are going to get a lot of practical help from members today who have had similar experiences,so make yourself a cuppa and wait for the advice to flow.i think you live in the UK and your post was really early so bet you have worried about this all night. Take care today,I'm sure there will be something else that will happen today ,im not saying that in a way to worry you,all i mean is Simba is still coming to terms with a whole new life....and getting over a life changing op so just be prepared for some bumps,and it looks like its going to take a lot of patience and i know you are worrying about the safety aspect of having him.if you continue how you are I know you will crack it and you will have such a bond with Simba if you see it through. Best wishes,thinking of you Angela
Re: Agression? Help! Thanks for that, Angela. Actually I'm in Canada so it's just about time for bed for me. Simba has been fine the rest of the night, my sons and a couple of their friends came over to watch TV, Simba laid down quietly and snoozed. I've been thinking through all the events, of course, especially that leap off the couch towards me. I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as "he was attacking me", more that it was one of the "jump up and nip at hands/clothing, etc" that he does when he's getting wound up. It just happened to be that he was starting from couch level as opposed to ground level. He did not growl, and the barking was the "talking back" to me as I was telling him "no" while he was on the couch. When he reached the ground he leapt up and tried to nip/grab again a couple times, but as I said I ignored it after saying "no, bad dog". It was just that the naughty behaviour seemed to come out of nowhere. He hadn't been wound up before that, we were playing ball very calmly and quietly, albeit not very successfully. But he just seemed to switch to "manic" so suddenly. Could it be that he felt successful in not giving me the ball, so thought his place in the "pack" had risen a few notches, so "why not try the couch"? Going off to bed now. I know I can't expect a perfect dog from a 9 month old whose had little real training and had owners who were very inconsistent. And I can understand and tolerate things like chewing, digging, etc. it's just this snapping/ defiance thing. That is what makes me uneasy.
Re: Agression? Help! Hi Lisa, It is difficult to be sure without seeing a dog's behaviour, but it sounds as though your dog is getting over excited and over stimulated. There is a lot going on during the evening! I would stop playing lively games with him in the house. Save fetching a ball for outside, and encourage him to relax and wind down in the evenings. I would put a baby gate across your living room door and keep him out except for specific periods when you supervise him and teach him to lie quietly on a mat or in a basket. Keep a house line on him so that you can simply lead him out of the room and to his crate if he starts being silly. He is still young and excitable and it is unlikely that he is aggressive. I would also suggest that if you continue having problems you get a qualified behaviourist to come and observe him. With one proviso. You have been mentioning a number of dominance based theories and I have put some information up for you and others about this, because I believe it is really important that you do not go down this path. Please do read the information in the links. If you decide to look for a behaviourist, do find an up to date one that does not practice rank reduction, which can be very harmful and may cause or increase aggressive behaviour. Pippa
Re: Agression? Help! i am a novice,.......am i right in thinking simba was neutered yesterday ? having done research on this operation as jasper is booked in for it in july,....i have read that after the op there should be no lead walks for 10 days, and exercise should be kept at a minimum,.......most of the things you are addressing apart from the snapping is what i am experiencing with my 6 month old,....... i put it down to puppy behavior,...when my son gets in from work he goes mental, running round doing a dance, biting his hands, jumping up, i guess this is just over excitement .......i have got to train jasper and my son, as i would not tolerate the behavior my son allows.....you will get there , .....you are doing very well
Re: Agression? Help! Hi Lisa. Sorry you are having such trouble at the moment with Simba. Pippa's post is the expert view, but I thought it might be worth sharing my experience with my dog, Lady because we had a lot of similarities with your situation. Lady wasn't a rescue dog, but had a bit of an uncertain/fractured upbringing when we inherited her at the age of 6 months. A lot of her behaviours were as you've described for Simba, and everything came to a head when we introduced her to a potential dog walker. The dog walker said she had some really bad aggression issues and she wouldn't touch her until we had her assessed by a dog behaviourist with a full report. That shocked us to be honest, so we made an appointment with a specialist who came highly recommended. She spent several hours with Lady and concluded that there was actually no aggression in her at all, and what we were seeing was a lot of insecurity that was exacerbated by her being very excitable and in consequence always pumped up with adrenalin. She wrote us a very good report with suggested actions most of which are covered one way or another in the various links Pippa has put in her post. So we worked really hard on her insecurity and hyper activity and to be honest I can't recall the real detail now, but we did switch to reward based training, lots of calming stuff like slow and firm stroking all down her body when she was lying down, and avoiding rough play at all costs, withdrawing from her (or her from us) so as to not reward the wrong behaviour if necessary. Putting her out of the room for just a couple of minutes worked really well. And then just making her feel safe and secure and one of us as much as we could. It took weeks and weeks, but she did settle, she did reduce then finally stop mouthing, and she did stop the "aggressive" stuff. Most of it was just being a puppy it has to be said though, and now that she's 3 and 3/4 she's turned into a lovely dog. But she's still very nervy and shows insecurity that we just have to live with and manage. They stay being very much puppies until they are at least 3 years old. Keep going and don't give up just yet. On the subject of the internet cable, if it's any consolation I had to re-install 3 telephone systems that got chewed up in the early days. ;D
Re: Agression? Help! Hi Lisa. I think I've had the similar problem with my fox red when I rescued him. He used to jump up me at the park when I had his ball and snap in my face teeth showing I'm no expert but I put it down to bad manners and not knowing what is acceptable after all a lot of dogs that a rescued from friends or whoever it may be take a lot of time to settle in and learn new rules people get rid of there problem dogs and we have to build new friendships and set new rules it does take time. When we used to go to the park I'd throw the ball and everything would be fine but then the excitement would set in the teeth would be out and the jumping up started it even got to the stage where he was running up to me and trying to knock me over just so he could get his ball it was embarrassing and at times a little scarey I looked all over the Internet to find answers but there was nothing that I could find to sort my problem so I went about trying to sort it myself. I started off putting the ball in a bag but then he tried to grab the bag so that was a waste of time then I see a chap up the park with two balls on rope he threw one and when the dog came back he wouldn't show the other ball until the ball the dog had brought back was under his foot and the dog was sitting. I asked him why he was doing it he said this taught the dog that I had the ball nothing would happen until he was sitting down waiting. I held the ball that he wanted and if he jumped up or didn't sit that ball wouldn't get thrown so I tried it and it took a few times with a few errors but it sorted the problem the dog has to know not everything he wants he gets its sort of a steadiness training thing aswell I find. Don't give up there's plenty of people on here that can offer advice and if one idea doesn't work try something else I used to think what have I done why wont he listen but I was trying to rush the training and it didn't work it just takes time. I hope this might help you out a little. Steve.
Re: Agression? Help! Thanks all, for this. New day starting here, feeling better this AM. Thanks for that info, Pippa. There do seem to be conflicting theories on the whole dominance thing. I have read over your post and links and have been thinking over all the interactions we've had with Simba since we've acquired him. I realize that part of MY mistake has been to worry over-much about keeping Simba busy, occupied, tired out. It hit me that this comes from my previous experience with Border Collies, who are a very active breed and need lots of stimulation and exercise in order to be happy. We used to play the fetch ball game in the evenings with them all the time, as a way to keep them busy. But I'm thinking that Labs perhaps don't need the same level of exercise/stimulation? And then I was seeing all the "manic" stuff as "okay, well, he obviously needs more exercise and things to do so have to keep him busy," etc. Deep breath. This is a new dog. Different breed. Right. I found those articles on the dominance theory of training very useful. And as I look back on everything we've done with Simba, really the things that have worked are the ignoring of bad behaviour and the rewarding of good behaviour. I think as a female I'm naturally more inclined to use the behaviour modification rather than dominance, anyways. Re: the making him wait until I go out the door/in the door. Part of this was based on the "dominance" theory, yes, but partly this is sheer survival on my part. Our front door opens onto 3 steps that lead to the front lawn. My door is acutally two doors, a main door and then a screen door, that is on a spring. So, when I first got dog and I would open the first door, and then the second, dog would take off down those steps - but I still have to get through both doors and close main door. And I was worried about being hauled down those steps at full speed by this large dog that soon I won't be able to physically stop from doing so. So I need to have him calm and in control as we leave the house. And I think at this point that the more he's learning in terms of behaviour expected of him, the better, right? Thanks, Steve and David, for sharing your experiences. It certainly helps to see others who have gone down this path and who have had success. The comment about rushing the training also hit home - as I have mentioned we are leaving for holidays for 6 weeks and have to leave dog behind - I am worried about how he will behave with my sons and those I am hoping to have come and take him for walks, etc. Mostly from the standpoint of having my boys react the wrong way ie too much aggression, which tends to be the male response, and then just make the whole problem worse. So, yes, I think I am perhaps feeling that pressure and expecting too much from the poor pup. I have to keep focussing on the positives - really, he is responding well to training, he is quiet and gentle for the majority of the time, he is still adjusting to a new situation, and he's just had an operation and has this dumb cone to deal with. Sorry for the long posts, everyone. Re: the cone, I do have a couple of questions about that too but will start a new topic, as it's unrelated to this one. Lisa
Re: Agression? Help! Deep breath Lisa. It'll be fine. Yes, labs are very different to border collies. Both are lovely breeds, and both are intelligent, working breeds that need stimulation. But at this point it sounds as though your Simba needs a calm routine, to help him learn how best to deal with this new situation he is in.
