Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs No, I don't think she is more moderate than Romeo (they are brother and sister after all) - that wasn't the point I was making in posting the picture, but I do think that the pictures of the dogs on their own in a show stance give you no reference points at all to judge the size of the dog - they could be donkey size, and you couldn't tell. She is about the right height that I like (I think Romeo though must be at the very upper end of the height limit, even for a dog rather than bitch). I love her back legs, and the shape of her back and tail. I think the picture does accurately show her stop, and her head is domed shape in profile. Her face from the front is as nice as Romeo's (which I do like, both dogs have a lovely expression). She is overweight, but do we think the bulk of her is fat? I don't think it is. Her shoulders and chest are very bulky, and I don't think that is fat. I do think this is important - if she were just overweight, her puppies could be thin. But the shape of her puppies head won't change with a diet, for example. This is the winner from Westminster: She seems to have feathering on her tail...! With people for context (couldn't find her with other dogs
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Yes, I agree with all of that. Including that, while she could lose weight, her chunkiness is due to skeleton and muscle - type, not simply a matter of fat. The type issue is the big issue, IMO. She is the right height. And Romeo is much taller than I had realised... I'd put the Westminster winner in the same category as Giuiletta. Actually quite a nice looking dog from that angle, good shoulder, good angles, but too stocky. If you cover the front half of the dog and just look at the back end you can really see how short the back legs are. I am not a fan of the width on these types of dogs, which you can't see from the side. They shouldn't have a chest that is super wide...they should be able to cut through the water when swimming and the butt should pretty much be the widest part (like the stern on a boat), not the chest.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Similar stop on the Westminster dog... [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9459.msg148462#msg148462 date=1425966721] The type issue is the big issue, IMO. [/quote] Exactly. That's what the puppies will inherit. Fat or thin is down to the future owners.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs I made my comment not really on basis of type or genetic traits. I was being a bit more general. Whether it is frame or fat is hard to tell. But either way I believe that dogs life will be shortened by its shape. Either by complications of obesity or its joints will suffer prematurely and affect its quality of life. I think I am borderline obsessed with weights of pets as obesity is such a major issue in UK pets. Everyday I see much loved pets suffering and their owners are oblivious. And I rarely meet anything but obese labs on walks. I think my main issue with show dogs is the example it sets to the public. It's difficult to tell an owner they're dog is fat or obese at the best of times, but when these chunky dogs are held in high regard as 'best of breed' owners are naturally aspiring to the wrong ideals. Unfortunately it is the same in many breeds, the pugs were awful and the wobble on some of the other breeds as they move was sad to see. In contrast I thought the Ibizan hound was painfully thin, and i very rarely think any animal is too thin unless it's a welfare or RSPCA type case. It's also the same in the world of horse showing, where 'show condition' is a term used to excuse the extreme body conditions seen.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Those are very good points about the example being set to the public, and how they will think this is the norm. Last time I went to a vets in the UK with Poppy, the vet said what great condition Pops was in - and said that she hardly ever sees any Labradors that are not obese. A very sad comment, I thought.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs I wouldn't say those dogs have conformation that will inherently lead to joint disorders. They actually have good shoulder, stifle, hock angles etc which means their limbs can act as effective shock absorbers (unlike a dog with straight shoulders or straight back legs, which can just as easily be seen in light working types). I'm sure we'd all agree that when people see big, wide Labradors on TV they think it's ok for their dog to be big and wide too. However I actually doubt that most people take much notice of dog shows or are benchmarking their dogs against what wins at shows. It's just not relevant to most people. I actually think that dogs are fat because (to name a few reasons - dog food manufacturers recommend far too much food on the packets - people see their dogs as family members these days. Humans, adult and child, are getting fatter and therefore so are the fur kids dogs. Everyone eats too much, including the dog - lots of enticing doggie treats to buy - dogs don't get fed the scraps these days, they get energy rich food made specially for them - people show their affection for their dogs by giving out food (and dogs don't say no) - people have busy lives and it takes effort to keep your dog at a healthy weight - etc But whatever the reasons, it's obviously good to help people to understand that they need to keep their dogs at a healthy weight.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs No problem win joint angles but extra weight (muscle or fat) increases wear and tear upon joints. Muscles add stability to joints aswell so there is some positive effect of muscle. The best way to help joints is non-weight bearing exercise and reducing load. It's not just show dogs I'm sure, there is a general acceptance that labs are greedy, labs are stocky, labs are all naturally fat so people turn a blind eye or are just accustomed to seeing fat labs which makes them 'normal'. I've been told my dogs too thin, not a real lab, a mongrel etc because she is not fat and people are shocked/impressed by her shape when they realise she is a proper lab.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Yes, a lot of people would be surprised at how lean a show bred dog can get and still be fit/healthy. There are two that do Flyball with us, both show bred, but lean as whippets. And just about as fast too!
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs [quote author=A.Causer link=topic=9459.msg148518#msg148518 date=1425984465] I've been told my dogs too thin, not a real lab, a mongrel etc because she is not fat and people are shocked/impressed by her shape when they realise she is a proper lab. [/quote] I had that with Shadow the other day. OK, he is working line and often is a little on the scrawny side, although looking a bit better right now (cue another growth spurt), but this woman was adamant that he was a cross. He couldn't possibly be a lab, he was completely the wrong shape. I have to say, I have absolutely no idea about conformation so would be interested to hear people's views when mine are fully grown - not that it'll change my mind about how beautiful I think they look
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Well, my show line dog is thin, and has never been taken for anything but a Labrador. Of course I agree that every dog should be at an ideal weight, but I don't really buy the "I saw a fat Labrador on TV so I think my dog should be fat" argument. The viewing figures for Crufts are tiny. I think there is a much wider debate to be had about education and dog care, including the role and influence of vets (which is much more important). I think the "let's have a campaign against fat show labs" without any informed judgement about the underlying conformation of the dog is just a bit daft. After all, no-one (sensible) would argue a slim bulldog, or a slim pug, is fit for purpose (just about any purpose) so there just are bigger fish to fry in discussing the dogs that are winning competitions. And that bigger fish is that these dogs go on to breed popular puppies or become popular sires. So it's about underlying conformation - whether that's a show dog that's far too bulky, or a field trial champion with wonky hocks, it's all the same important point. The breed standard (in the UK, and in Australia - there are some alarming points that have crept into the US version) is our friend in this - the breed standard sets out a fit for purpose dog.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs What are the alarming points in the US version, Julie?
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs The most alarming point in the US breed standard is that on a mature dog the underline should be straight - that there should be no tuck up at the tummy. This means all dogs must be fat. The other points are the revisions of the weight limits for both bitches and dogs upwards to the extent that my Charlie would be too light to qualify to meet the US breed standard (not that he'd win any shows anyway, but that's not the point). I also dislike the increase in the height range, but arguably that's not harmful on its own. Also missing are some explicit points that still exist in the UK breed standard, such that the appearance of an adequate chest must not be created by the dog carrying excess weight, and so on.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9459.msg148529#msg148529 date=1425986900] The breed standard sets out a fit for purpose dog. [/quote] I follow this with interest but rarely have anuthing to say as I feel I don't really know enough to comment, but just to throw a spanner in the works I personally do not feel that any of the Labradors shown are crufts are fit for purpose. Can you imagine a dog that size effectively retrieving game on a day long shoot? I can't. I have had a lot of comments about Penny, a lot of people not beleive she is a 'real' Labrador, however I think a lot of this is due to her colouring more than anything. Which raises another thing - I don't think I've seen a show lab anything other than yellow!! There were a scattering of black dogs in the earlier stages when I watched them at crufts last year but I bet none of them got to best in breed. Didn't see a single chocolate lab, and nothing even remotely close to being considered fox red.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=9459.msg148536#msg148536 date=1425987917] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9459.msg148529#msg148529 date=1425986900] The breed standard sets out a fit for purpose dog. [/quote] but just to throw a spanner in the works I personally do not feel that any of the Labradors shown are crufts are fit for purpose. [/quote] It's not a spanner. That's the point we (some of us, anyway) are arguing their conformation does not meet the breed standard. I think there are several reasons why yellows are more successful in the show ring, lots historical lines. But for me, the expression on yellows better hits the labrador "kindly" and "melting" button - with dark eye rims set off against a lighter coat. For me, this is one big reason why a yellow dog is more "Labrador" than other colours (and why we all melt at Obi's mascara). I think it's hardest to achieve in Chocolates, that are often hampered by too light eye rims and too light eyes in general.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs I agree not a spanner at all. These dogs are not fit for purpose. They couldn't do a days work, most probably can't even play a decent game of fetch. They are probably well insulated for working in water though hehe, that is if they don't sink!! It's strange about yellows isn't it, the are more photogenic than blacks but personally I like black labs. Would love to see a fox red, dual champ perhaps, in the show ring but I'm of course biased and doubt it will ever happen. Fox reds are just too 'working class'. Haha.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Well, the recent fox red colour was revived from show line dogs, so you never know. And there are an increasing number of show line dogs working now, there was even a show line golden in Phillipa Williams' display - so the show lines might save your dual purpose champ hopes yet.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Couldn't agree more, the lab that won best of breed this year is not fit for purpose. There is no way that dog could jump a fence to retrieve, or spend a day out on a shoot. I think that being in the 'Gundog' category means they should be it for that use. Chloe
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs I was by no means campaigning against show type labs in general, so please don't think I am. I love all labs, cant't beat their love for life and endearing temperaments. If only we could breed out the crocopup phase. My issue is just with some labs which are shown, its a subtle difference. It makes no odds to me whether a lab is bred on show or working lines, I just hate to see them fat and happen to own a working. Also many pet labs are probably somewhere vague in the middle, either of the not kc reg/not health tested variety or health tested and reg'd but not distinctly show or working. What I mean is there is a large grey area between the two types. Then you throw in US terminology of American type lab which is often very different in head shape to both types of English labs. I'm all for healthy, active and happy labs and I am one vet definitely on a crusade against fatness in every breed. Even if pugs don't have a job, they're poor little compromised resp system needs all the help it can get in the weight department. I didn't realise the standard for the AKC had changed to straight line from elbow to groin - that's so incorrect.
Re: Update on the slimdoggy blog about overweight show labs Ps there's no way we'd achieve single champion status let alone dual. Too nutty (her) and not enough patience (me) to do proper field stuff and as for the show ring she's about 3 inches too short at the withers!!
