Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Hi everyone. Earlier tonight I sent an email to the puppy socialization trainers for the class I started taking Maisie (14 weeks) to the past two weeks. At the last session, the trainer "scruffed" my dog and caused her to screech with pain (the trainer claims it was "shock/startle" but it was identical to the sound she makes if you step on her paw, but louder/longer). I wrote an email expressing my issues with this training technique and asked if it could be guaranteed not to be used on her in the future or we wouldn't be attending any more of these classes. Before I even got her email back, I'd decided to go to a different training group instead. I should note we have a personal trainer for obedience but go to puppy socialization to learn how to interact with puppies.

She emails back, putting all the fault on my puppy, and saying she is malicious and dangerous to the other puppies, and they used it because nothing else worked. Um, they didn't even try sending her out of the store with me (it's held in a pet store). They were just hanging onto her in the pen above where all the other puppies were playing while she was biting and crazy (having a temper tantrum). They had said nasty things in the session about her impulse control, so I guess I shouldn't have been too surprised, but basically they said she has very poor impulse control, red flags for aggression, and she bit them with "malicious intent"! WHAT the heck???

First of all, we have an obedience trainer who thinks Maisie has great impulse control. I'll admit she goes crazy in puppy class, but it's because it's so overwhelming/exciting/crazy and she's only had 2 sessions! I also hadn't trained her to be very calm around other dogs yet as I was mostly concerned with socializing, but I am going to start working on that now (already asking for a sit before she can approach other dogs while walking). Anyways, Maisie can do stuff like sit on the opposite side of a doorway from a cup full of food and wait until the ok is given to walk through the doorway - fairly good impulse control!

Second, she is just a puppy! She may seem nasty when she is trying to bite while being held, but she is just over-stimulated and overly aroused and just having a crazy moment. It's a hugely exciting circumstance for her. For them to say it was "malicious" is just ridiculous.

I think that they are not great trainers, but it was still really unnecessary to send me that email. I think part of it was covering her tracks when it comes to liability or reputation. She can say my dog was nasty so that's why she had to do that. Well she was a 15 pound little baby, so good luck with that, who everyone thinks is sweet as pie. However, I did feel I should send that email to the trainer I work with and I asked her for suggestions on impulse control with other dogs and for her honest opinion on her potential for future "aggression"… I just don't see the aggression! She is very very friendly! She wants to meet every person (and does not bite unless very worked up, in which case I should not let her greet people at all, I know, and I'll work on that) and is friendly and gets patted (sometimes jumps up, but we're working on that). She wants to play with every dog she sees - not be nasty but she doesn't have good manners yet either.

I don't know what to think. Is my sweetheart a nasty monster waiting to happen? Is her going crazy around other dogs (running around, being quite bitey with the other puppies, although they were bitey back?, whining with frustration when not being where she wants to be) a sign of future aggression? Should they really be so concerned over the impulse control of a fourteen week puppy?

She also concluded as she is "getting bigger" and still as tenacious as she was in her first class… she went to two classes! And is about 5 pounds bigger than she was! Sheesh. I am inclined to believe they are just not very good trainers and are freaking out about nothing that is not trainable, but I'm quite worried that we'll have a repeat experience at the other program's puppy socialization (different trainer and program). I might phone up the trainer for that session and ask her to keep an eye on her specially to give me feedback.

Anyways, this has left me feeling very unsettled and sad, I cried when I got the email as it was so nasty. Not sure what to think.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

They sound like awful trainers and there is no behaviour in the world that could justify a young puppy being shaken by the scruff. I feel so angry for you! Do not go back to that class! I would not take any notice of what they have said about Maisie - so she bit them, so what? She's a little puppy who wouldn't have it in her at that age to be malicious; she was probably over excited as puppies get and it's completely normal. We all know pups can be little crocodiles at times.

If you are confident with your obedience trainer perhaps you can ask them to recommend a socialising class?

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

I'm so sorry you've had this awful experience.

I can't agree with anyone who says a 14 week old pup is aggressive or bites with malicious intent. Unless of course they were restraining/scaring her even then malicious intent is a bit over the top.

I can believe in poor impulse control. I have two with poor impulse control. :. The only way is to work and train through it.

I think it's a good idea to discuss it with your obedience trainer who doesn't seem to have any problem with Maisie. Hopefully they can give you some advice. I would also discuss it with the new puppy socialisation people. Tell them about this experience and what they did to Maisie and you weren't happy with them. Do you leave her at puppy socialisation ? If so maybe the new place would let you stay and observe from a distance to see what Maisie does. It might give you some ideas on what to work on and put your mind at rest.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Penny… essentially I would not even be welcome back if I wanted to go - she even said they were going to tell me on Tuesday that their program was "not right for her" as she was too crazy and had so many red flags for aggression (although didn't tell me what those were). But yes, I do not want to go back there even if I was welcome! She was definitely just being a little crocodile and yes it seems nasty but she's just overexcited.

Jen - Yes, that is what I thought too! She is so little - she was 12 weeks at her first class and 13 at her second, and she is a very slight little pup too. Only 14-16 lbs at these classes, so it is not like she is a 30 pound pup shoving her weight around. I thought the line of "malicious intent" was just ridiculous as well. I can see how a puppy chomping can seem very nasty, and I do get very upset with her if she chomps me at home (of course, my correction is to either take her off the couch and turn away, or just turn away if she is on the floor, rather than to shake her or dangle her by the scruff) but it is not her true nature, it's when she is overly tired or overly stimulated. The set up was that there was a pen, and your puppy went in for certain time periods with other puppies. Maisie got really excited and frustrated to not be in the pen when others were (whining) and once in there had too much energy and ran around, or bit people a bit - but heck, she did her own share of yelping as the others played too rough with her as well! I was watching but didn't know what to do when she scruffed her as I was just so shocked and thought I might be overreacting.

I forwarded the email to my trainer to ask about how to teach her to play better with other dogs (I must admit she is not very polite, if the dog is bigger than her she likes to launch herself onto their head to get in a sniff… but I figure enough times being told off for that, she will realize!!) and her impulse control around other dogs. I don't think she has good control of herself around other dogs, but she also hasn't had much time to work on it as she is little and these were her first classes. The trainer thinks she is sweet and smart and has good impulse control around food, etc, so we'll see what she thinks of this.

There is another training program I think is better and I will try out on Saturdays, they offer a socialization date. I'm almost scared to take her to socialization now because her behaviour is so crazy, but how else can she socialize? They also have a class called "Manners and Motivation" that is drop in, so I think I will try that this week… it says it is ideal for puppies that are pushy and rambunctious. I think it may be better to try having her around puppies when she is supposed to be focusing on training, rather than having her play with puppies because there is no opportunity to try to refocus her once she is playing… whereas doing training near other puppies may quite help. Another thing I'm scared of is that her whining will be seen as disruptive - she is a big whiner and a talker when she is held away from what she wants (she doesn't usually bite, just complains), but it may be disruptive? I don't know… I wasn't really worried about her temperament at all and now this has just thrown me for a huge loop.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

That sounds horrible. I deffinately wouldn't go back. I'm glad you have another option. I hope you have a better time at the new place.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

She is a young dog who is 'trying it on. The other dogs will soon 'put her in her place', that is the nature of things. One could say, that is how they learn.

As for scuffing or shaking a puppy. It seems to me that that action is a great way of teaching any animal that 'might is right'. She was essentially bullying Masie.

You are paying for professional services and that would include appropriate behavior when dealing with a difficult pup.

You are clearly unhappy with this woman's services and that will probably transmit itself to Masie.

Don't be despondent, there are lots of good trainers out there, go find one.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

She is a totally normal puppy. She's a baby who bites and gets excited like any normal Labrador pup. Those people who held her by the scruff have no right to be calling themselves trainers. Don't go back there - they hurt your puppy and have no idea about normal dog behaviour.

If any instructor did that at my dog club they'd be hung, drawn and quartered.

Relax - their words mean absolutely nothing. Apart from revealing their lack of understanding and skill, that is.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

I don't know a lot about dogs/puppies but I find the aggression thing hard to believe, in the time I've had Kenzi I've only encountered 2 "aggressive" dogs and it was obvious. One thing that I saw that might help is this http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/handout-canine-ladder-aggression which shows the body language of a dog regarding aggression vs just standard play.

One thing to add, Kenzi is 1 year old, doesn't have an aggressive bone in her body but when she plays she will also throw herself at bigger dogs. She does a little body spin/ninja kick think over little dogs and tries to jump on top of bigger dogs - it is just play though.

Also - in terms of socialisation I went to socialisation/basic training and it took Kenzi 5-6weeks to calm down even a little so that she wasn't snatching treats or trying to get to the other dogs, even after that she was still one of the most hyper dogs in the class (but that sounds quite normal for labs ).

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Thanks so much everyone who says she is normal - my last family pup was a very difficult dog to train who did have a streak of nastiness in him, even though most of the time he was loving. So I'm a bit over sensitive to any criticism that suggests Maisie will be nasty as she grows up.

If I can find a socialization group that let's us attend more than 2 sessions she may improve! I'm also setting up play dates with older dogs.

In any case, this has worked out well for Maisie as I'm having trouble sleeping and letting go of this, so she's come to sleep on the bed with me so I can remind myself she's really a little sweetie at heart! She loves to cuddle. She's crate trained and usually spends the "sleep in" hours on my bed only, but she gets more time tonight .

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

She sounds gorgeous

Pups are often exuberant and highly energetic in their play. It's just how they are. You are doing exactly the right thing by seeking out opportunities to socialise her in a positive environment so she can gain experience with a wide range of other pups and dogs. She will definitely improve.

One thing you can do is practise your recall with her, so you can ultimately recall her from play with another dog. That will help her learn to self regulate by having calm moments away from play, before going back to play again.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Please don't worry, try and forget what these people have said. Not easy I know.

I agree with Rachael. The way they treated Maisie was unacceptable and shows they don't have much of a clue how to handle puppies/dogs so there feedback is pointless and not worth a second thought.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

I've never met a Labrador puppy with impulse control...they are not born with it!

What nonsense from horrible, unskilled people. Put it out of your mind and certainly never return or expose your puppy to them again.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

This is why I don't agree with 'free for all' puppy classes. A 14 week old puppy is almost certainly not aggressive, just being a puppy. The class you went to doesn't sound as if they understand dogs, so you are well out of it. It is better to find a class where puppies are taught but do not have a free for all interaction; perhaps two pups let to play for a very short time. The class should mainly be teaching the pups how to behave, sit, come, lie down, walk to heel etc etc. but in a fun way.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Don't go near the place again.

Anyone who hurts your pup is not worth the time of day. Appalling. I'm so angry for you.

Of course she's a normal pup!

My Gypsy is a guide dog pup, so I see lots and lots of pups every week at our training classes (mostly Labs or Lab crosses) NONE of them have impulse control! It's what we teach them, over time (a lot of time!) I just wish you could come to our classes and see some of the crazy crocapups there! Every one will grow up into a wonderful, amazing, steady dog - and two in three will go on to be the steadiest dogs you will ever see - guide dogs.

((hugs))

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

What horrible people. Worse than that, dangerous. Luckily you know she's just a sweet little puppy with(surprise surprise!!!) not great impulse control... But what if a new puppy owner didn't know that, and then labelled their tiny pup "aggressive"? That could have knock-on implications for the rest of the dog's life.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Walk away and don't look back.

Where do you live? Are there any doggy daycare centres near you? We have used our local one regularly since Pongo was 12 weeks old and he absolutely adores it; and it is great experience for him.

Rosie

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

You are so well out of that situation...poor little puppy :'(

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=9551.msg137734#msg137734 date=1421575064]
I've never met a Labrador puppy with impulse control...they are not born with it!

What nonsense from horrible, unskilled people. Put it out of your mind and certainly never return or expose your puppy to them again.
[/quote]
Couldn't agree more! Avoid like the plague.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Change the scene.

I took my two year old to toddler group and she gets so excited playing with the other children. She took a temper tantrum and when I went to her she started kicking and screaming, the supervisor of toddler group picked her up by her jacket collar and she went ballistic.

You get the picture, a two year old having a temper tantrum does not make an aggressive adult, the way we react to the tantrum might.

These people are dangerous. Too many people will believe the rubbish that these idiots will tell them.

 

Re: Awful email from puppy socialization trainers

Good analogy, Cupcase.