Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. I was going to ask the same as Rachael. This thread has been really interesting Kate. I'm interested to know how you are going to proceed now you know the effect testosterone has on Benson.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Well in respect of whether we castrate or not, still a little undecided. Probably yes on balance. We just need to see if the the increase in our training can mitigate some of the behaviours we are seeing developing in Benson. So loads and loads of work on meet and greet, or more specifically, removing the need for him to meet dogs on walks,so a lot of work on self control, this is quite hard, Benson is young and whilst recall is fairly good, it could be better, other dogs are a huge distraction for him. We appreciate will never be able to recall from a bitch in season, but I really want to minimise the interactions he has with other male dogs. It helps we have a fantastic trainer who is aware of what we are trying to do, and we have an environment (Yoof club on a Saturday morning) where we can train Benson with other adolescent dogs
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Thank you for this thread, I have found it a fascinating read and I hope Benson's progress will continue to be logged here so that we can see how he gets on as he matures. While reading it I was reminded of myself two years, wondering whether to neuter Snowie or not. I simply assumed all dogs were neutered/spayed because that is what happens to most dogs I meet in our area (one of the local vet's missions is to neuter every dog that comes into her office, she has said as much). But when Snowie started limping as a pup, I started to read every bit of research I could find, and I learned about bone growth and hormones. From what I could glean -- and from what the vet confirmed -- testosterone inhibits bone growth so that bones stop growing at the correct length for each particular type of bone. The study I read was about bulls and oxen where bones were measured after they were slaughtered. So thus started my indecision about neutering Snowie. He was not allowed to return to doggy daycare from six months because the doggy daycare rules were that all dogs are spayed/neutered at six months (this was upsetting for me at the time as I work, but we found other solutions). And he was much like Benson in his boisterousness (I had never met such a lively dog!). He also HAD to meet every dog on our walks, was the MOST boisterous dog in the dog park and at dog school, and had no recall whatsoever in situations that had an inkling of a distraction. So I also wondered if neutering would help with obedience issues. He is very confident and has never shown an ounce of aggression so I did not have those issues to take into consideration, and he has been exceptionally well socialised thanks to a doggy park around the corner, the wonderful walks we have in our area, and that I like taking him everywhere with me (into town, shopping centres, friends' houses, cycle paths, children's playgrounds, the beach, etc). There is also a law (in Cape Town, South Africa) that no bitch in season may be taken into any public space. Despite the law, at 10 months Snowie met a bitch in season -- the owners brought her to the dog park (what were they thinking???) and holding onto him (he had on a leash and harness) was like trying to hang onto a fire hose that was out of control. I know I would never have any control over him if he were to meet a bitch in season off leash but thankfully this is not generally an issue in my area. But I am pretty sure that a few weeks ago a bitch in season had weed on the grass on one of our walks because he spent an inordinate amount of time sniffing at that patch and then became very "mounty" after that for quite a few weeks (having read this thread I understand now that the effect takes time to wear off -- I didn't realise it then, I was just concerned that he wanted to mount at least one dog on every walk we took off leash. Coincidentally he was put on a low dose of cortisone tablets for very itchy skin, and he stopped trying to mount dogs at the same time and calmed down hugely -- any link I wonder?). I was told that keeping him intact would mean he would get picked on by neutered males. I have seen no such pattern. He is a very friendly dog but of course not all dogs like him, but the worst that has happened to him was that he got nicked on the lip by an English bull dog when he raced up to it and tried to lick it on the mouth (shame, he screamed when this happened). Some dogs try to mount him, males and females. He stands there and stiffens up, and on the odd occasion when the dog seems rather nasty, he will make a strange growl. But I always intervene so that he never has to learn to be aggressive and I either pull the mounting dog off him or become very assertive in my voice and that dog will get off quickly (they know no-one messes with my dog!! ) But something that I hope someone can shed light on is this: he tends to treat some neutered male Schnauzers and Labs as if they are bitches on heat! First he goes in for the lick of the nether parts and keeps on for as long as the other dog will stand still, and then he gets incredibly focused and chases that dog so that he can mount it. There is one Schnauzer in particular that we meet at least once a week and the owners have said many other dogs show this kind of interest in him. But I wonder if Snowie's intactness makes him more prone to this type of interest? And there was a question someone asked earlier in this thread: is an intact dog sentenced to a life of frustration? Snowie, in general, is the most easy-going dog around and at home he is quite happy to lie around. He is confident and friendly. But is he less happy than a neutered dog because he still has his testicles? Does anyone know? I have noticed that he will mount different dogs for different reasons. The most obvious one is when a young dog is hyper excited and races around like a mad thing. At some point Snowie tries to mount it. Has it ignited a hyper-excited state in him or is he trying to calm it down? Another situation is when a dog won't give up his ball. Snowie is very generous with his ball and likes to chase a ball together with another dog. But if the other dog won't play this game and instead refuses to give up the ball, then Snowie mounts it until it drops the ball, then he grabs the ball and returns it to me to throw it. And then of course, when he catches a scent (I've read that urinary tract infections in older dogs smell like a bitch on heat), then he wants to mount. There might be other reasons for his wanting to mount, but these are ones that I recognise, and if I can (and I usually can because I am always on the lookout and I am very aware that my dog is unneutered and often looked upon with disdain in my area), I stop his mounting before it happens. I am so impressed with Benson's training and his abilities. Snowie was NOWHERE near as obedient at that age (no doubt because of my training abilities). But one thing that I was happy to see was that he calmed down significantly at two years. And even more so at three years (his birthday is in January). I can now walk him off leash and he will avoid dogs that appear unfriendly or he will "leave him" when I tell him to (admittedly not 100% but incredible improvement). His brother was neutered at one year and apparently he is still very immature and races up to every single dog on their walks. I have read that testosterone has a maturing effect although Snowie and his brother are hardly a controlled study, but interesting to note nonetheless.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Kate, is has been really interesting. Many thanks for writing it all down for us. Good luck with your decision.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=MF link=topic=9925.msg154071#msg154071 date=1428065315] Thank you for this thread, I have found it a fascinating read and I hope Benson's progress will continue to be logged here so that we can see how he gets on as he matures. But something that I hope someone can shed light on is this: he tends to treat some neutered male Schnauzers and Labs as if they are bitches on heat! First he goes in for the lick of the nether parts and keeps on for as long as the other dog will stand still, and then he gets incredibly focused and chases that dog so that he can mount it. There is one Schnauzer in particular that we meet at least once a week and the owners have said many other dogs show this kind of interest in him. But I wonder if Snowie's intactness makes him more prone to this type of interest? And there was a question someone asked earlier in this thread: is an intact dog sentenced to a life of frustration? Snowie, in general, is the most easy-going dog around and at home he is quite happy to lie around. He is confident and friendly. But is he less happy than a neutered dog because he still has his testicles? Does anyone know? I have noticed that he will mount different dogs for different reasons. The most obvious one is when a young dog is hyper excited and races around like a mad thing. At some point Snowie tries to mount it. Has it ignited a hyper-excited state in him or is he trying to calm it down? Another situation is when a dog won't give up his ball. Snowie is very generous with his ball and likes to chase a ball together with another dog. But if the other dog won't play this game and instead refuses to give up the ball, then Snowie mounts it until it drops the ball, then he grabs the ball and returns it to me to throw it. And then of course, when he catches a scent (I've read that urinary tract infections in older dogs smell like a bitch on heat), then he wants to mount. There might be other reasons for his wanting to mount, but these are ones that I recognise, and if I can (and I usually can because I am always on the lookout and I am very aware that my dog is unneutered and often looked upon with disdain in my area), I stop his mounting before it happens. [/quote] Really interesting to read about Snowy. I can shed a little light, probably what you have gleaned already. Having 2 male labs, one castrated (Casper 6) and one intact (Benson 17 months ) it is interesting to see how both react to certain dogs. Casper does not appear to be influenced by an in season bitch. Saying that, with a couple of dogs we meet and know well, there is a definite pattern. These are dogs either neutered or spayed that both my dogs feel an urge to mount. One is an older spayed female, and one is an older heavy male lab. When discussing this with our trainer it was explained that this is likely due to impacted anal glands (common in heavy breeds, and risk is increased through certain diets, lack of exercise and the dog being overweight) also certain infections. Both the dogs I mentioned fall into these categories. Benson is very sensitive to a dog smelling "different" mounting is the way he deals with it. Understanding this helps, and also a strategy for keeping him close, and allowing play with only certain dogs really helps. Frustration - Personally I think this is caused by the environment - and of course a female dog! If I feel that he is responding to a scent, very quickly I will remove him from the situation, it is only our local common where this can be an issue, there are lots of other areas to walk them both. I also feel recognising the difference between and excited dog and a frustrated dog is important, I guess the strategy is more or less the same. Catch it early, lots of distraction and fun things to do, training, games etc...
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Thank you for your thoughts! I have some questions... What was the reason you were given that Benson mounts as his way of dealing with the strange smell? Perhaps this will shed light, for me, on why Snowie mounts that miniature Schnauzer that smells so interesting. Do you know if this kind of behaviour persists once a dog is neutered? In other words, once he has learned to mount, will he continue to do so -- as a learned response -- even if he were neutered at a later age? Or does neutering alter a dog's perception of a smell or perhaps takes away the desire for mounting no matter the trigger? I also had the experience that, after Snowie has been put on a lead and taken away from the dog that was "too interesting" to him, he appears to have lost interest and gets on with whatever else is now interesting. With that bitch on heat, as soon as we were around the corner it was as if he'd never been so wild with lust, just went back to normal. This morning we had an interesting experience: we were at the local dog park, all dogs generally known to us and friendly. One of the usuals came with her female Staffie (she and Snowie have a mutual adoration for each other). But the Staffie has a "thing" for Bostons (according to the owner) and there was a Boston in the park (also one of Snowie's best friends). The Staffie made a beeline for the Boston, pinned him down and went for his throat. To the staffie owner's credit, she knows her Staffie has a thing for Bostons and always avoids these situations, but hadn't seen the Boston. Thankfully the rescue was immediate and the Boston was not physically harmed. But immediately after, Snowie tried to mount the Staffie -- and to my eyes it appeared he was trying to stop her from making another move. (I know, we all try to see the best in our dogs!) I pulled him off her because, if that was his motive, I still don't want him to feel he must be responsible for diffusing a situation (maybe I'm wrong?). His next behaviour was to be ultra-focused on his ball -- and this I know he does when he is stressed, he seeks out his ball and wants me throw it for him. He does this when an aggressive dog barks at him (there is one in particular that comes past our park and focuses on Snowie through the fence and acts like he wants to kill him) to which Snowie quickly brings me his ball. So this whole mounting business, I do find confusing; I am wondering if mounting is always a bad thing, and I'm wondering if, as dogs get older, the desire to mount decreases even if they still have their testicles. (Apologies if I've hijacked the post away from the effects of Tardak -- perhaps this should be a new topic!!)
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Neutered dogs can definitely still mount other dogs and it's not confined to males either. My lab is four years old and intact and has been mounted by both, he's also tried to mount both. I'm not really clear why. It usually seems part of a general over excitedness. I think neutering is most likely to remove the huge drive that the scent of a female in season can bring about. The kind of drive that causes garden escapes, running across roads and through brick walls to get to her. Everything else is part of a more complex play of relationships and general arousal (as opposed to sexual). That's my take on it anyway
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. My neutered dog has mounted about three other dogs in the last 8 years. He never mounted or showed any sexual interest before he was neutered. He did it to two Yellow Labs and a couple of weeks ago to a Black Lab, all female. The last one ,the owner said lots of dogs (females as well) try to mount her, I think I read that dogs with anal problems are very attractive. I have a feeling it could be due to attraction and also domination in other cases.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9925.msg155329#msg155329 date=1428581973] Neutered dogs can definitely still mount other dogs and it's not confined to males either. I think neutering is most likely to remove the huge drive that the scent of a female in season can bring about. The kind of drive that causes garden escapes, running across roads and through brick walls to get to her. Everything else is part of a more complex play of relationships and general arousal (as opposed to sexual). That's my take on it anyway [/quote] What she said. My desexed dog occasionally mounts other neutered males and some other females (neutered or not). He's done this to maybe half a doz dogs in the last two years. The dogs he mounts are ones that the owners say every dog wants to mount, so it's something about that dog.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. I see a lot of dog mounting - I walk in a very busy place. Charlie (2 year old intact male) has never mounted another dog, but pretty often - maybe every other week or so - dogs try it with him. I think it falls into two distinct types. 1) a sort of geeky awkward thing on behalf of the dog doing the mounting, a mix of over excitement and play, and usually Charlie puts up with it, looks like he is rolling his eyes, although isn't very keen. 2) a quite aggressive approach, and in this case Charlie will stand his ground, growl, and to be honest I reckon he would fight if pushed (I have never let it get that far). In no other circumstances, even outright aggression, will Charlie stand his ground but on dogs mounting, he will. Because Charlie hates it, I hate it - I don't think my dog should have to put up with it, and I intervene if the owner of the dog doesn't.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. 1st May..Update Back at the vets for another consultation re: chemical castration, review of behaviour, and discussion around surgical castration. We then had Benson implanted with Suprelorin 4.7mg (6 month approx). We continue to have real issues with some behaviours with Benson, despite huge investment of time in training, working with trainers etc. The problem is when he is not bothered by scent he is good, even to the point of not being too fussed about meeting other dogs now even off lead. Everything has improved. His focus at agility is excellent and now he can do a full course off lead, jumps, tunnels, seesaws, A -frames. Saying all that it all goes completely to pot when he picks up the scent of a bitch in season. Everything goes horribly wrong, and this also distracts Casper. We would surgical castrate as he is there or thereabouts,physically and personality wise. Ideally we have have preferred to wait until around 2 years old but we are struggling and are really worried about the risk of harm if he runs off. At the moment we don't have time to help him recover from a surgical castration, just too much going on right now. So, weighed today and he is 28.8kg, so he has put on weight since last visit, about a kg or so. This is interesting as he actually looks a bit thin right now so I think he has bulked up in the last few months, which fits in with our thinking that he still had a bit of filling out and growing to do earlier this year. Weighed Casper and he is now 32.3 kg, so needs to shed a kg, something to do with a side of venison and a bucket of eggs methinks, plus I suspect Remy ( the marmalade monster) is feeding him blimmin rabbit again...... : The vet was great, we spoke to a different one than previously, and he was very reassuring, spending a lot of time on the floor playing with Benson, and asking lots of questions around his behaviour, training, etc. Benson was relaxed and happy with the exam. The implant was quick, a wince from Benson then biscuits! I really hope it goes OK..the vet didn't see any reason why not, especially as there were no ill affects from the short acting Tardak. He did comment that with some dogs it barely last 2 weeks, exactly our experience also. The lower dose of 4.7mg Suprelorin however should be enough, and if there is a problem it is completely reversible. So this is him at the moment...at 28.8kg, nice tucked waist and defined. Will weigh again in a month to see if there is any gain. Will also keep him on the same rations, as I think he is just a touch slim right now. benson training 2 by kate_beanwood, on Flickr
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Very interesting as always Kate. Thank you for keeping us informed. I will be very interested to know how you get on with the suprelorin. I think I've mentioned before I've considered it for my two for similar reasons to you as they get very distracted by the scent of a bitch. The reasons I haven't gone for surgical castration, yet, is because of their nervousness incase losing testosterone makes them worse and also getting them both through the recover period after the surgery would be a nightmare. : I think I remember reading that the implant can increase testosterone for the first few weeks, or something like that. It will be interesting to know if you notice.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. [quote author=Jen link=topic=9925.msg160881#msg160881 date=1430639714] Very interesting as always Kate. Thank you for keeping us informed. I will be very interested to know how you get on with the suprelorin. I think I've mentioned before I've considered it for my two for similar reasons to you as they get very distracted by the scent of a bitch. The reasons I haven't gone for surgical castration, yet, is because of their nervousness incase losing testosterone makes them worse and also getting them both through the recover period after the surgery would be a nightmare. : I think I remember reading that the implant can increase testosterone for the first few weeks, or something like that. It will be interesting to know if you notice. [/quote] Regarding nervousness, this is what our vet was keen to discuss with us, and asked lots of questions to determine exactly what Bensons behaviour is like when confronted with new dogs/environments/objects etc. We found this reassuring, he has also used suprelorin in a number of gundog breeds without any problems to date, but I think he is careful about which dogs would be suitable. Regarding the flux of testosterone, the vet didn't consider this an issue, as it is unlikely to affect current behaviours or have a physical effect.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. Still reading this with much interest. Thank you for posting
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. I think it is a fabulous record. Really interesting. Even having a girl Thanks from me too.
Re: Tardak- temporary chemical castration log.. We are hoping to manage the expected initial surge in testosterone by taking them both to quieter walks, where we rarely see other dogs. I am not sure if this is necessary, or whether indeed having more testosterone than normal will result in any significant change in behaviour, however we are just erring on the side of caution. This "flooding" apparently takes up to 3 weeks..although I can't find any specific detail on what that looks like and how to manage from a practical perspective. So far we haven't seen anything untoward, maybe more "air tasting", and possibly more intense sniffing...he is pretty intense in his sniffing away though. Very early days but hoping documenting observations prospectively may be more useful than trying to summarise later on.
