Ok so as a lot of you know Rolo my 6 month old chocolate lab has been displaying unwanted behaviour such as resource guarding his food, his space, his crate and basically anything he holds dear to him. I had him booked in for an appointment with the vet yesterday. Over the weekend things came to a head when we took Rolo down to the MIL'S for an overnight stsy and then brought MIL back home with us. He was snuggled up on MIL'S shaggy rug dozing and MIL approached him and he snarled and snapped at her catching her hand. I said he was probably feeling vulnerable having just woke up and having her towering over him. The following day the same thing happened only this time he has approached her and enjoying lots of fuss then snarls and snaps! On the way home he was sat next to her in the car and he did it a few more times before we rearranged the seating! At home (his house) he has done it only once. So off to the vets we go. Tell the vet my concerns and she says......wait for it........he needs the snip! He has too much testosterone and he is trying to muscle his way up the hierarchy, remove all his toys and show him who's boss! I came out stunned. I called my hubby told him the good news and felt bewildered by it all. She had given me the telephone number for a behaviourist and said the first thing they would want doing is castration! Called the behaviourist today and she is lovely. Told me that the vet had been totally wrong and was stunned to here such advice being given. She talked me through what she felt was the problem (she feels something is triggering him to react like he is) and how we could change this behaviour. She comes out and does a 2/3 hour initial assessment gives us a plan to work with, keeps in touch with us and then 4/6 weeks after initial assessment returns to see how things are going. Sounds great doesnt it? She also does dog training classes about 35 minutes away from me the first week we leave puppy at home and she trains us! It all sounds great doesn't it? Until the price, for the behaviour therapy £325 and for a 5 week set of dog training classes £85! I am becoming so disheartened by all of the conflicting advice that is about there, I feel I'm being pushed from pillow to post! My pet insurance covers upto £250 of the behaviourist's fee but then I have to pay £150 excess! Or do I bring in my new dog trainer who is also a qualified animal behaviourist but charges a lot less? £35 an hour.
Re: In a quandry! I'm on my phone , I'll drop a line later .. Good news that you have options to begin working through these issues x
Re: In a quandry! So sorry to hear that you are having a rubbish time of it, you must be really worried. And so sorry to hear your vet is so misinformed - but sometimes vets are good at medical things, but not other things. I guess it's not unusual for vets to suggest a medical intervention if they are not familiar with the problem you bring them. I was pretty astonished to have the head vet nurse tell me, when I took Charlie in for his jabs, that I must stop him biting and mouthing immediately from 8 weeks. I just muttered "um....what about bite inhibition?" but didn't really challenge her. I know it might be difficult to find the money for the behaviourist, but I really do think it's the way to go (assuming you have found a good one and have confidence in what you've heard so far - you might want to speak with a couple of other ones, to make sure you've found the best you can for your money). You really do need help with this now, and that does mean someone coming and doing a proper assessment and seeing exactly what's going on with Rolo.
Re: In a quandry! I think the behaviourist's approach sounds very promising and if it helps you to end up with a more relaxed dog that you can also relax around I'd think it's cheap at the price. Especially since you will only have the excess to pay. It's very important to get professional help with this. The problem is getting worse, not better. I do think you can turn it around with the help of a behaviourist who knows what they are doing and who is on tap to help.
Re: In a quandry! Ah. ...not so good. I would say you need to deal with this now and don't wait until something worse happens. :-\ Off set the cost of castrating against the cost of the behaviourist and might not sound quite so much. From others advice I wouldn't rely at all on castration being the answer. Rachel has hit the nail on the head. I think your vet has given rather an off the cuff answer. Although it's a lot of money I think the behaviourist has my vote. Really hoping for a good outcome here for you and Rolo. x
Re: In a quandry! My vet has told me castration will cure my dogs of their nervous aggression !!! Unfortunately I think you do need help. Rolo's behaviour is not normal and the difficult thing is working out what triggers it so you can work on it. Walking on egg shells around him and being careful how you behave could well be reinforcing this behaviour. My dogs have a very obvious trigger but Rolo's trigger is not obvious so you need someone with experience to observe his behaviour. What are you reservations about using your new dog trainer ? Having said that I'd go with a behaviourist that's been veterinary recommended. It's expensive but if Rolo's behaviour continues it could end up costing a lot more in money and heartache. :-\
Re: In a quandry! I would say vets are not behaviourists - they can have very old fashioned ideas. I wouldn't be having a 6 month old pup castrated if it were me.
Re: In a quandry! Honestly Kris - I think you need to bite the bullet on this (no pun intended) and have this behaviorist come to your house as soon as possible. You obviously realize the situation is escalating with Rolo. You desperately need professional advice as to what is causing his behaviour, and how to stop the trigger that is causing it, before things get any worse. If your insurance will indeed pay the first 250 pounds, than that will be a great help. If not, I know it seems like a great deal of money - but it is an investment in a family member (Rolo), who will be with you for the next ten to fourteen years. Years that you want to spend as a happy family, not in a situation where you are constantly afraid that someone may get bitten. You want Rolo (and yourselves) to be shown how to become a close knit, happy, contented family, who can all rely on each other.
Re: In a quandry! I agree that a professional view is needed as quickly as possible. The cost, though considerable, will be nothing to the impact a serious incident may have on you all. Wishing you the best of luck.
Re: In a quandry! I have only ever had bitches, so perhaps I am not qualified to have an opinion, but for what it is worth. Castration is irreversible. He is still very young. Don't be stampeded into a decision. Although you cannot have a dog that snaps and resource guards, he is entering pubity. I despaired of Molly during that time. I understand that it is the time period when it is most likely that a Lab is sent to rescue. I had a couple of sessions with a behaviourist/trainer when Molly was about 9 months old. She came to the house, stayed about 1 and a half hours and charged me £35. Second time we went down to the green where I train Molly and again £35. A behaviourist might spot something that is causing his snappiness. I found it very reassuring that I wasn't doing anything wrong and it was just the teenager who was causing all the problems which she would grow out of. I considered the £70 well spent for the experience, knowledge and expertise. If having the snip solved male snappiness there would be a long line of elderly ladies with their elderly husbands outside hospitals all over the world Apologies to the lovely men who frequent the forum
Re: In a quandry! I’ve been reading this thread and your original post thinking I wish I could offer some good advice, but then thinking I can’t. However, thinking back about my dog, Lady (black Lab) when she came to us at just over 6 months old, there are a lot of similarities with our situation at the time. She wasn't giving full-on bites, but she was mouthing really badly to the extent of causing bruises and breaking the skin sometimes. At the time we needed a dog walker once or twice a month and one very good one had been recommended. She came to assess Lady and point blank refused to take her on as she thought Lady had real aggression issues and she wouldn't take her unless we had her assessed by a behaviourist and a remedial plan put in place first. The behaviourist spent a whole morning with Lady in a church hall nearby where she could assess Lady without any distractions or outside pressures. The result was that she found no aggression in Lady, but a lot of insecurity. She helped us with a remedial plan that included keeping Lady calm at all times, giving her lots of stroking “therapy”, and avoiding super excitement as far as I recall (this was 5 years ago now). Most of her issues seem to have been caused by over excitable play that pumped her full of adrenalin and resulted in what amounted to dog attacks on whoever was in the vicinity. One of the main culprits was a family member rough housing with her. Lady's fine now, but he still has problems with her when he visits as she looks on him as a “puppy” pal. ;D We had to religiously avoid exciting situations. If Lady showed any crocodile behaviour we had to ignore her completely by turning our backs or putting her out of the room for a few minutes, and only reward calm behaviour. This took a lot of effort including outside on dog walks, so all our dog walking friends had to be warned that they had to avoid all interaction for the time being. It took a long time to modify her behaviour, but it did pay off. After a few weeks, the dog walker took her for a trial walk before accepting her and expected to be away for about 30 minutes. She called me after an hour to say everything was fine, but she’d been badly held up by all my dog walking friends telling her about the massive effort I’d put in on Lady. ;D Lady didn't fully settle until she was nearly a 3 years old and she was fully mature. She’s a lovely dog now, but not completely trust worthy in the jump up with mouth open business. She hardly ever does it and I’m kind of tuned to watch out for a likely target these days so I can try and field the situation before it arises – it's usually non-doggy people who flap their arms in front of her. We also have two grandchildren now aged 2 and 3, and although I would never leave her alone with them Lady adores them and is really gentle around them. She’s a working dog and picks up on a shoot in the winter. She’s a pet dog the rest of the year. I would suggest you get some advice, before it’s too late from a qualified behaviourist who should be able to give you a plan to improve matters, but in the meantime try the line of keeping your dog super calm at all times for the time being, and that’s quite difficult but needs all the family members to cooperate and avoid any excitable activity involving them – especially any rough housing or any interaction that the dog picks up as excitable, and that could be simple stuff like ordering the dog about.
Re: In a quandry! It might be the best investment you pay for with your pup. I had a clicker trainer come and do an hour of positive, reward based training - well training me really and I think it was well spent, even though it was a significant sum for me. If you can afford it then get the trainer. If you needed new tyres on the car it would come to more. Having the snip may not sort his head out enough.
Re: In a quandry! Just got a chance to come back,there's nothing really to add,you've had some really good ,direct advice from some very experienced dog owners whose opinions I totally respect.For me,the only decision to be made is which Behaviourist?the vet recommended one doesn't necessarily mean she is the better one...some of the fees are covered and whilst still expensive it's in an investment in your family's safety and Rolo's future with you.with the right action now this situation can have a positive outcome,we all support you in that x
Re: In a quandry! I can't offer a whole lot of advice I'm afraid but I will say this - if you look at the cost of castration sometimes this could be up to £250-300 depending on where you live. If you are not intending to have him done then that money can be put towards his behaviour sessions. You say your insurance will pay £250 towards this, but you will have to pay an excess of £150, but that is all you will pay as the rest comes from the insurance company, not out of your pockets. You have done the right thing in seeking a professional opinion. I wonder if instead of committing to the whole treatment plan with the behaviourist you could get her in to do an initial assessment and then decide which way you want to go from there. She can come in and assess him and advise what she thinks may be the issues and the likely cause, and then you can make an informed decision as to wether or not to continue with her.
Re: In a quandry! Chiming in to agree with the others that you do need to get an expert eye on this, and the sooner the better. I totally understand the worries about the cost, it's a hefty sum that I would have trouble scraping up, quite frankly. So I get where you are coming from on that. However as the others have said if I were you I would be looking into other behaviourists, or checking into partial payment for the initial assessment only, or even seeing if she will allow payments on a payment plan. The trouble is that your pup is showing aggression towards different people, in different situations, in different places, and without any apparent trigger, or at least one that you have been able to identify. All of that adds up to a worrying situation in my mind. For the safety of you and your family you need to get him assessed as to what is going on. It may be something very simple, it may be something more complex that will take some time and the cooperation of all in your family to work through. But until you get an expert eye on him, you are just not going to know. David has given you some good suggestions for now, but I would urge that, in particular, your kids not be allowed to be alone with Rolo. The last thing you want is for someone to get badly hurt. I really feel for you, I know how hard it is to build trust with a dog that snaps at you....we went through it with Simba. I hope you are able to get some help soon. Please keep us posted!
Re: In a quandry! Wow, what an overwhelming response to my post. Thank you to each and every one of you who took the time to reply. There is no doubt in my mind or my husband's mind that we need an expert to assess Rolo. I have been in touch with 3 behaviourist's and have been on all 3 of there websites and spoken to each of them. I am going to sit down with the hubby and discuss who to call in for help. I will keep you posted on who we decide. Once again thank you. Kris
Re: In a quandry! On a practical/financial note: A puppy's first year can be spend, spend, spend. If you sat down and worked out what you have spent so far you would be gob-smacked. I am not dismissive about money and I do remember how tight things were when my kids were little, but the amount we are talking about is not particularly large compared to what you have already spent. Good luck with it. Tina
Re: In a quandry! Good luck with the behaviourist. Hope you manage to get yo the bottom of things with Rolo x
Re: In a quandry! Hope you find the right person to help with Rolo and you can get to the root of the problem. It will be worth every penny to have a happy pup and happy humans
Re: In a quandry! I'm perhaps a little late in coming in to comment but having re-read your original post and the extra comments, I wonder if you could get some references for the behaviourists, people they've helped before and can reassure you that the investment (thinking time and effort, not just the cash) was the best thing for you and your pupster and going to give the whole family the best result.
