I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I'd like to put my penny worth in.

What is wrong with hand signals? My last dog was a stroppy little Terrier mix with ATTITUDE. My trainer suggested that I use Hand Signals and Vocal Commands, this gave us 2 pathways into her furry little brain. It worked. In fact it worked very well. I have always used verbal commands and hand signals with Molly, it seemed the natural thing to do. Frequently I just use hand signals and she complies.

As our dogs do not speak any particular language, the words we use are just a seris of noises to them. It makes sense that they vary considerably between my husband's ( big guy, 6ft and heavy) and me (5 foot 1inch and around 8 stone) voices because of the resonance of our bodies. So hand signals are again very useful.

A personal opinion is that the dog should not be on the bar stool in the first place. It is a public place and not everybody wants to sit on a stool where a dog has placed its muddy paws and bum. What you do in your own home is down to you, but elsewhere you have to respect other people's feelings.

Your description of lead snapping etc behaviour is pretty typical of an adolescent dog. As you will soon discover

I fear it is another case of ''small dog, untrained dog", because, to some degree, you can get away with it with a smaller dog because in the final analysis you have the strength to control them. Last week when we were walking there were two young women walking a Yorkie sized dog, it was snapping, snarlng at the end of its lead trying to get at Molly. It was putting so much effort and aggression into its attempts that its front legs didn't touch the ground. They thought it was funny and cute and made no attempt to correct.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=Mollly link=topic=10423.msg153799#msg153799 date=1427968986]
What is wrong with hand signals? My last dog was a stroppy little Terrier mix with ATTITUDE. My trainer suggested that I use Hand Signals and Vocal Commands, this gave us 2 pathways into her furry little brain. It worked. In fact it worked very well. I have always used verbal commands and hand signals with Molly, it seemed the natural thing to do. Frequently I just use hand signals and she complies.
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Funny you should say that, I've been thinking about this, as some of my verbal cues are weak compared to my hand signals. I think visual signals for cues used at a distance are absolutely necessary. But the advantage of putting something properly on a verbal cue is that it is harder to inadvertently give that cue (depending on what word you choose, of course ;D ;D ;D ).

For example, one of Charlie's strongest visual cues is a hand touch to my palm, but he can get that wrong - I can be reaching for something, and he'll hand target my palm. Or if my fetch cue is my hand out, he'll break when I move my arm to give him a blind retrieve cue as he starts anticipating my visual fetch cue. I want to be able to move all around him or any part of me and he'll stay sitting. So, I think it's move that there are advantages to verbal cues in some circumstances.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

You're right about the small dog thing. The owner is starting to realise that it's not OK, though, so kudos to her for wanting to make a start on training now, even if it may seem a little late.

He thought that I should train things that other people could use to control my dogs and hand signals were "sign language". So I pointed out that I didn't want other people to tell my dogs what to do, that they shouldn't think they should tell my dogs what to do. I also asked which language he thought was most appropriate to teach them in at that point. :

My hand cues are generally much stronger than my verbal ones ("sit" aside). I was very interested when watching Philippa Wilson at Crufts, how she was able to cue her dog with hand signals, but also wave her hands around as she was speaking. I think that showed firstly that her hand signals are very precise and secondly that the dog know when it's being cued. John came with me the other morning when I did a training session with Shadow, and I was really pleased how Shadow focussed on me and waited for me to make eye contact to respond to a cue - for example, releasing from his sit/stay - even though I was gesticulating like a woman possessed talking to J. He showed some excellent "filtering" skills!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

That's interesting Fiona our trainer works his dogs together one's an HPR and one a lab. They pretty much know which dog a cue is for based on who he's looking at too. I think I would be in heaven if I ever get to the point I can work both my dogs at the same time ;D

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=bbrown link=topic=10423.msg153855#msg153855 date=1427985080]
That's interesting Fiona our trainer works his dogs together one's an HPR and one a lab. They pretty much know which dog a cue is for based on who he's looking at too. I think I would be in heaven if I ever get to the point I can work both my dogs at the same time ;D
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Haha, that's a goal for me, too! I do a bit of basic stuff at home with both of them - I have one settled on a mat while the other one is working and that goes really well. I still treat the dog on the mat for their being calm so they don't get frustrated. And when I have both out and about, I sometimes do a little bit of individual work, such as having one sit/stay while the other walks to heel, or hand targets etc. It's still very early days, though!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10423.msg153823#msg153823 date=1427973338]


He thought that I should train things that other people could use to control my dogs and hand signals were "sign language". So I pointed out that I didn't want other people to tell my dogs what to do, that they shouldn't think they should tell my dogs what to do. I also asked which language he thought was most appropriate to teach them in at that point. :

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The amount of people who want to say hi to Maisie and then immediately command her to "SIT!!!!!" is insane. I can't get over how weird it is. I usually step on her lead so she can't jump up on someone, so it's not that she's jumping up on them. She's just standing and wiggling about. If you don't want to pet her unless she's sitting and not wiggling, either ask me to get her to sit, or don't pet her!

I swear, people are LOONY about trying to make your dog sit. The two most memorable was someone in the dog park, who wanted to give Maisie a treat. The dog park is HUUUUGELY exciting to Maisie so she doesn't listen to the lady telling her to sit, so I say "forget it, it's fine" because Maisie doesn't need a treat and I don't need this lady trying to train my dog. But the lady GRABS HOLD OF HER HALTER and tries to make her sit by pushing on her butt - I was so shocked I didn't say what I should have, which was "let go of my dog now" but I did detangle her from my dog because grabbing hold of her isn't going to make her sit. She is lucky my dog is so easy-going and doesn't care if people touch her like that, but really, why would you do that to a strange dog???? Why is it so important??? Then the other lady was just someone walking by who wanted to pet her but wanted her to sit. Her method was yelling SIT SIT SIT SIT SIT! in rapid succession while trying to push down on her bum. Again, wtf, I just took Maisie away and was like, what is with you…

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Oh how painful.... I absolutely hate it when people try to give cues to my dog....

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I have to say, vets are the worst for this. Almost every vet I've been to has picked up a biscuit, held it close to them in a sort of "you can't have it yet" gesture, and said to Charlie "sit". Which he does, of course. They have a biscuit in their hand. :

I just want to shout "DON'T BRIBE MY DOG". But I never do. I just smile and say good boy Charlie. : ;D ;D ;D

But when people walk towards him in an intimidating way, saying SiiiiiT! in a stern voice, because they have been watching Cesar Millan, I stand in front of my dog, and I do say "don't intimidate my dog".

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I've explained very clearly to the "sit, sit, sit, sit, sit" brigade why I don't want them to do it. People think I'm a nutter. So be it. They're right, of course, just not for the reasons they think

I do wonder, though, WHY are people so obsessed with dogs sitting?!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I think it's because they know all dogs (usually) know how to sit… or they think they should… I don't know. One girl tried to shake Maisie's paw, which I haven't taught her because Maisie whaps people with her paws enough without being encouraged to do so.

If I make Maisie sit while out for someone, it makes her much less interested in the other person because she wonders if she might be asked to sit again, and possibly receive another biscuit. So the person who wants to pet her is then disappointed. Thankfully Maisie is becoming much less interested in other people while we're out…if approached she is still very friendly and she LOVESSSSS visitors but we have much less visiting while on walks and I appreciate it so much as people are often so daft.