Feeling defeated and realizing I truly have so far to go with Myles (6 months). Apologize for how long this is about to be! When I first got him at 11 weeks, I quickly learned that having access to my whole back yard was a problem. Bark to chew on by the tree, gravel rocks to eat. And any attempt I made to get something from him resulting in him immediately running from me (yes I failed in this area and did try to catch him). Since then I decided to section off a space for him so he would have less to get into and I would not have to be in a position to have to get things from him. I have worked on clicker training for lead walking, training him to fetch (to help us have a focus in off lead times). Training him to fetch has helped him bring stuff to me and I try very hard never to chase him. But he still has that flight tendency (in play mode) when he knows that he has something of value to him (rock, bark, stick) and he knows I want to get it from him. This is the same problem when he gets the run around crazies. He will start running around me and just loses his mind. When we are in the house, I will close myself in a room and that usually stops him. Outside though, he won't stop. So we were just outside and in trying to give him time in his kiddie pool. This time on a long lead. there are moments of fun fetch and return, jump in pool, repeat. Which I think is great. He's engaging me and play, but I'm not appealing for very long. Eventually I'm competing with eating gravel and bark and running from me, and trying to play tug with the log lead that's on him and running off with the water hose. And truly he gets out of control. Trying to play, he jumped up and grabbed my elbow and it hurt. I end up grabbing the lead and playtime over. Clicker training has been great for lead walking, and commands (sit, down, touch), shaping a few things. But my problem is this. He's great when I have a clicker in had, we are indoors, he knows we are training. But I am failing to get obedience out of him when I need it. Sorry I know this is getting rambly, but just not sure how to address this. My first lab was so sensitive that just a firm "no" and he would behave immediately. Myles thinks no is a play word. So this is new territory for me. And his tendency to be a run-from-me type has stopped any off-lead training. We had a few scary moments when he detected his "freedom" and I didn't have a lead in him . Lesson learned. Ok so i will try to narrow down my questions: I know clicker training is all about positive reinforcement, so is there no place for "No"? How do you combine what they should do with letting them know when they shouldn't do something? I think I'm looking for practical first steps to take to start to break this down so I have a dog that is responsive to me when we are outside, when he has a little more freedom, etc. Ugh so many questions, sorry if this is all over the place.
Well, you have a 6 month old Labrador puppy. Who gets no off lead time, and in the garden, he gets into trouble if he picks up a rock, a stick, or the garden hose.... Where is his time to be silly, to run around going crazy, to be...well...a 6 month old Labrador puppy? Doing what 6 month old Labrador puppies do? It seems to me that you are asking for a lot of control without there being much play time (involving you too, for lot of it of course). Myles sounds a lot like Charlie. There is no room for "no" in training Charlie. Because it's not "no" - he doesn't respond to "no". It would have to be a sufficient punishment to squish that mad excitement out of him. I'd do more harm than good. A great deal of progress with Charlie has been slow. Some of it has just taken time because he stayed juvenile for so very long with all environments being very exciting - he just needed to grow up a bit before his training became reliable. And I've still go a long way to go.
I think it would help immensely if Myles was allowed to play puppy style. Mabel's favourite task is pruning and digging it's just what some puppies do. I wondered if there was somewhere you could go where he was off lead even if it was for a short time. Mabel's progress is slow and there are days when I could cry with frustration. When she starts doing puppy stuff, I just smile and think one day she will be really old and I'll look back and smile at her puppy antics. Although at times as its happening it's infuriating. I've learnt to chill and from tomorrow stop apologising to strangers when she's not perfect. I have complete emphathy as its not easy with a puppy. I think Myles sounds like a bundle of fun. Mabel would love him I have no doubt they'd have such fun together if we were neighbours. Xx
Thanks for the replies. Myles is a fun, sweet goofy boy and it certainly isn't my intention to get this out of him. Off lead options have been limited as he has car anxiety so we have to stick close to home. And I don't have reliable recall so I can't just let him go, we have a lot of work to do first. I've been working on getting him to fetch to give us more of a focus when off lead. My first lab was an avid fetcher (just came naturally) and I never had to even teach him recall. My recall was a ball in my hand . Myles is completely different so I'm having to learn what motivates him and what gets him to respond to me. I certainly am not trying to squash all puppy fun (most of the ways I've limited things are for his protection, so I thought), but I suppose it's difficult to distinguish between allowing things because they are just puppies and when you are letting certain habits form which should be addressed while they are still puppies. I think understanding that was the intent behind my original (but rambling) post. I'm at a loss at times with him because after 10 years of owning a labrador, I find I have no advantage because this one responds so differently. I'm learning he does not respond to No, but this (and clicker training for that matter) is a new concept in training to me. And in the moment when he is doing circles around me and losing his mind in all sorts of ways, it can be easy to question things. My questions really were about how to give him more (freedom), not less. Anyway all 55lbs of him is currently curled up on my foot and snoring loudly. So snuggly when he is sleeping and I forget that he is such a mess sometimes. As I say to him often "it's a good thing you're cute"
Hmmm… do you have a strong "drop" or "trade" command? Maisie has sort of two words for the same thing, meaning, spit out what is in your mouth. I accidentally trained a second command, "trade" for when she had something of higher value. I think this happened because I didn't want her to run off with it or swallow it (thinking I was going to take it away, so she better gulp it). So I actually would be saying "Maisie, can I trade you?" while *walking away* from her into the kitchen to grab a really high value treat to swap for. I usually use "drop" outside but if she's stubborn on something, "trade" often will get her more interested and drop the special thing and run to me for the treat. You might benefit on working on that kind of trick if he has something dangerous in his mouth so you have a better conditioned drop (as it's all habit). Do you do any training outside on a short line? I think we often end up doing all the training in the house, and forgetting to "proof" it so much in different environments… I really like doing training in the park as it is more challenging for Maisie, but we don't have a backyard, so that's our substitute. I would think about different ways to "proof" against distractions and focus on that in your training if you aren't already. I agree that maybe he needs a corner where he is allowed to dig and be mucky! A puppy pool is great, does he splash about? Maisie and her dog friend like putting balls in the pool and taking them out again. Some puppy owners disagree with me on this one, but I do allow Maisie to have some stick access. I prefer her not to run with sticks as if she tripped that could cause a severe accident, but she does fetch them out of the water and she does often pick up a stick and carry it a few feet on our walk, or try to lie down and chew on it. Have you ever watched him chew on a stick? Some dogs spit out all of it, some don't and splinters in the tummy wouldn't be nice, but if he really does spit it all out, a bit of chewing might not be bad. Does he like tug games at all? That gets Maisie really interested in playing with me! What I do is keep a few toys as "special" tug toys… she ONLY gets to play with them with me. Sometimes if she's lucky she gets to have it thrown for her as a reward and do her victory laps with it - or I give it to her as something I know she will keep in her mouth when playing with another dog to prevent her using her mouth on the other dog (sometimes she is overly nippy when she starts play). Anyways if he starts to like tug, that's a great way to do a couple things - make yourself more fun, wear him out, and also work on obedience when excited. The way we do it is: she sits and waits for a command to take the toy ("take it"); if her teeth touch my hand while grabbing or playing, toy taken away and ignored for 30 seconds; we tug a bit, then she is commanded to drop (sometimes give treat, esp if training drop). Then she has to sit again and wait for command to take it. Once he's really into tug, you can use that as a training reward as well. Anywyas… sorry that was so long. I just thought of a few different ideas that might possibly be helpful. Maisie isn't even 50 pounds at the moment so it would be tough to deal with 55lb Myles if I find her tough to deal with at times! And you know I understand the car anxiety - hopefully Myles will be able to tolerate the car soon as well!
Hi there,you've already had a few good suggestions ,one of the things that stood out to me were you chasing him to get something off him.Oh,I know the temptation when it's the 50 millionth thing he's picked up that he shouldn't have but he must thing it it's the best game ever.....a game of chase with his human! When Dexter was younger I had a clicker round my wrist and treats in my pocket all the time ......if it looked like he was about to play stay away with a pebble in his mouth( his favourite thing ever when he was 6 months) I'd ignore that and call him to me to do a few sits and downs reps,you could guarantee he'd spit that pebble.....Its wearing at this age,everything is just so super exciting and interesting to them and it can feel all work but it will stop.Dexter pulled up our WHOLE irrigation system ,peg by peg ............. Im gonna get hung for this ( only joking) I do say NO! And I do rattle out Ah ah! II can't help it ,it just comes out !!!!Although I do try not to do it so much now .It will stop Dexter doing what he's doing ...he doesn't understand what I want from him but he knows from my tone and volume I'm not happy which I think is what interrupts him ......it didn't have that effect when he was Myles's age though ,he pretty much ignored me!
It's really hard to train a dog like Charlie (and Myles sounds similar) when they are under exercised. It's difficult because you have all the scatter brained puppy stuff, plus all the energy, and a bit of frustration too. Those are really challenging circumstances. What are your options for getting to an environment where Myles can have some freedom? Dog parks, beaches, safe enclosures - any off lead socialisation classes available for example?
I also let Mabel carry sticks sometimes they are so big I have to carry one end with her, she is then allowed to have a little chew, if she walks nicely to heal with me. So far she hasn't tried to run with them but I've started carrying air dried sprats which are really smellie as my high value treat as no doubt she will try to at some point. I also rattle Ah ah at Mabel, it works to a point but she's a tough little girl and I'm better off distracting her but sometimes I can't help myself . It so hard having a 6 month old puppy. You'll get there in the end, Mabel's 6 months so I'm with you on that one. I have days like today when I think REALLY, but know she's curled up next to me on the sofa and I feel guilty for moaning about her normal puppish ways.
MM, he LOVES tug. I actually trained fetch by using tug. I couldn't get him interested in just going to fetch a ball, but I got a great rope toy and started w/ tug, then i just throw his rope toy and he eagerly brings in back for more tug. It's done wonders for fetching and it's becoming a more automatic response for him to fetch whatever is thrown now. But to your point, not much of this is proofed outside. I need to work on this. I like your method of "take it" and drop. We're not quite that good yet . I've tried "trade" as well, but I don't always have something of value on me when I need it at times. If he's in the yard and I want him to spit something out, I can go inside and get peanut butter and he'll usually drop a rock for a lick. He's gotten tons better on walks as far as picking up sticks, rocks, etc. It's more of a problem in the yard or if he's off lead. It's like his mission to find something and run off w/ it ("keep away from mommy"). Grrr. Dexter, good feedback. Myles sounds much like Dexter at that age. And I understand about No and Ah Ah (I use both of those). They just come out of me too, and seems necessary at times. Good point about wearing clicker and treats more often and getting him to come to do a few training reps. This would take a high value reward though to get him to leave the middle of the yard if he has a rock in his mouth. Rocks in mouth and keep away from mom is just TOO fun. (I don't chase anymore, wish I never had!) It's good to hear that some of the ignoring comes w/ the age and hopefully improves as he gets older. I need that reminder. Julie, well the car problem has limited us and our recent limping/growing pains didn't help either. His limp is much improved and there is a dog park very close by (with a splash pad!) that would be worth the car trip to try. I have been too scared for him to go to a dog park for some reason. I guess seeing as he has NO hesitation to jump at any dogs face to play, I fear aggression from another dog. I think I will try a time with very little traffic. Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Yes, well, I can understand your hesitation in using dog parks. I'd be a bit wary of them too. A splash pad sounds good though! Maybe if his limp is better now it'd be a good way to get rid of some energy (as you say, at a quiet time). Saying "no" to Charlie has about the same effectiveness as this: [video=youtube;oE4J2WFzPeI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oE4J2WFzPeI[/video]
That was so random and hilarious! It makes me laugh because not only do I say No with zero effectiveness, but I will add extra commentary and variations of No. "Quit that" ..... "Don't even think about it" ..... "Excuse me, we do not pull" . As I am saying these things to him I am fully aware that all these extra words mean nothing to him, yet I still keep talking
Juno also loves sticks and I gave up long ago trying to stop her picking up on our walks - we have had to much wind bringing down branches on all or walks to make it feasible. We've even thrown them for fetch, we just stop her from chewing them. I also use No and Ah, Ah with Juno and haven't had any problems, it's just quicker sometimes to say No to stop an action in the same way as I used it with my children.
Some dogs respond to a disapproving tone of voice, if they are sensitive to that kind of thing. Some dogs can be easily intimidated (not suggesting anyone is doing that of course). And some people have trained "no" to be an interrupter (so it means turn towards me or something like that). My interrupter is a click-click tongue sound - it means "quick, pay attention, you are going to get a great treat". I could have trained "no" in the same way but just picked a different sound, one without any emotion in it. Charlie is not sensitive to my tone of voice. Human disapproval is water off a duck's back to him. He just thinks "fine, you're no fun, I'll go play with the water irrigation system instead" (or whatever). In order to get "no" to mean something to him (without training it to mean something) I'd have to be seriously scary. That's not a good look when out and about, I think. I say "no" and "ah ah" by accident sometimes. I spent a while with a trainer who though it was a good idea, and it is something I do without meaning to from time to time. It doesn't do any harm, because Charlie largely ignores it. Sometimes he might look at me as if to say "what?". But that's just because I've made a noise. These days, Charlie is very sensitive to me not giving him a reward when he expects one. This is a clear signal to him that he has got something wrong, and he knows exactly what it means "nope, try again". Altogether a happier state of affairs for a dog like Charlie, anyway. Closely related to the raptor in the vid at times....
Mylestogo, you have some excellent advice here! Especially about giving him the freedom he needs to be able to make good choices. NO is something to avoid because it means nothing to the dog - except that you're cross (which is why it appears to work for some dogs). Dogs are doers. They need to be doing something. They can't NOT do anything. So they are unable to process NO. Always offer an alternative, one which results in a tasty reward. Myles is doing just what a puppy should do - explore everything and watch your reactions. He's learning how to wind you up at the moment. As suggested, always have treats/toys on you. You can say YES! instead of clicking - anything that marks the behaviour you like and tells Myles there's a reward on the way. Training needs to be happening all day, anywhere, not within a formal session. Have fun with your puppy! He won't be a puppy for long.
Sorry but I must take some exception here - I use NO with Juno in the same way as I use Leave it of Off, not that I am angry with her and she is praised for not doing something, for example picking up poo! Juno is a happy, laid back little girl with out any real hang-ups or behavioural issues.
So today I filled up his little pool and decided to do some yard work and just let him have all the freedom he wanted without mom interrupting to stop him from digging for rocks, eating sticks, etc. I've just been so paranoid about him eating them. What a difference. He was so happy just wandering about and yes I did find him chomping on rocks several times but I *think* he just spits them out. He actually loves just hanging out with me, sticking his nose in whatever I'm doing (which I don't mind of course), and for 2 hours he was just my little yard buddy. He had a couple of zoomie runs (which I have to get out of the way for, he will jump right up and into me), but he just loved the freedom of being outside. And now I have a tired boy which is always a win So I am trying to relax more and not worry so much about every stick and rock, and let him just be a loony goofy puppy. He's a very happy boy, not at all sensitive which is I think why No just doesn't work with him. I don't think dogs are incapable of understanding No. My last lab was very responsive to it, and I could always say it very calmly. But his temperament was much more of a "pleaser" than Myles. With Myles, "No" would have to be combined with something far too punishing for it to ever be effective and that's not what I want. It's still a learning process with this boy as he is just so different from my first. But he's awfully sweet, very snuggly and completely hilarious, so we are having lots of fun Thanks for the feedback everyone!
Sounds like you had a fab few hours together . I think sometimes they need the freedom to learn for themselves
