Hi, due to the amount of time we have had to keep Charlie on lead for his lack of recall etc. he has not been meeting many dogs when he is off lead and this has lead to a socialisation problem. Every dog he meets now he has a sniff something happens and he starts lunging sometimes uncontrollably and barking even at bitches and puppies. We are now really worried about this and don't know what to do. When he has met dogs off lead in enclosed areas he has been fine. Really would like to try and get this issue sorted out. Any help very gratefully received. Thanks Helen x
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Helen, do you know of anyone with a calm friendly dog who would be prepared to walk with you or just be with you when Charlie is in a controlled area ? Its a shame that this aspect has suffered but it can be put right, he has a good temperament so thats half the battle , keep your chin up x
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot So is the issue mainly when he is on-lead? On-lead nervousness and barking (whilst being fine off lead) is fairly common. It's said that the reason is that when on-lead, dogs feel more vulnerable because they know they can't get away and so put on a defensive front. I'd be thinking about what your behaviour is as you approach other dogs. Are you 100% chilled or are you thinking "Oh no, another dog! He's gonna lunge and bark!". Charlie is likely to be picking up any anxiety which will tell him that he is right to feel worried. Try to show all the outward signs of calm self-assurance. Keep your body relaxed. Don't stare at the other dog. Don't tighten the lead. Walk in a curved line around the other dog (not a straight line approach). Do say hello to the other handler (even if they look like the scariest, most anti-social person in the world). Also, give Charlie practice at sitting and attending to you when other dogs pass by. I would keep him on lead for this. This exercise will teach him that he doesn't need to have the pressure of interaction with the other dog, that treats appear when other dogs appear, and that sitting quietly is a rewarding alternative to barking and lunging. You may need to put quite a bit of distance between yourselves and the other dog initially. There is no reason why he needs to say hi to other dogs on lead, but it would be good to get to the point where he can walk past them without a fuss. At the same time as all this, give him practice at interacting with known, calm, friendly dogs. That will help to develop his social skills and increase his confidence.
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Thanks ladies. David mainly walks Charlie and says he doesn't do the things you mention. However when Charlie sees another dog he pulls on the lead which obviously needs to be controlled, David doesn't walk in a straight line etc. Rachael David has read your reply and will put this into action. I can ask some friendly dog owners but they may not want to if they know Charlie's reaction. :'( I am feeling really worried about this and guilty that we let this side of his training slip due to all the other issues we have been sorting out. This is his only minus point now but it's a pretty big one. Thank you Helen xx :'(
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot I agree with Rachael that walking him calmly past other dogs on the lead, and keeping his attention on you during this, followed by whatever reward works best for Charlie, is probably the way to go. You may need to cross to the other side of the street to begin with, or keep some distance to the other dog, and then over time decrease the distance until you can walk past with no trouble. You may need to positively ooze what dear Cesar : calls 'calm assertive energy' (in other words, no tension, you totally believe this is all going to work out perfectly). Charlie is not an aggressive dog, Helen. You've had a tough time recently; I am certain he has picked up on this and is now worried and uncertain what caused your unhappiness. He probably now needs reassurance that the world is a good place, that other dogs are fine, and that you don't need to be protected from them. You'll sort it. Xx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Thanks Karen, do you really think we can sort this out?, he had a bit of an issue with some large males but not to this level bitches and pups so this has been increasing over time. He never attacks just lots of barking and lead lunging and he always looks so frightened. I feel we have sorted lots of things out and we are at fault for not keeping up with his socialisation even though I did try dog classes for some months and he just behaved the same way so we left. He came from a rescue where he was kennelled with lots of dogs and in his foster home she had two large GSD's, so it is our fault totally and we take the blame for it no matter what has been going on in our lives. Feel just awful :'( :'( xxx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot You have most definitely worked wonders with Charlie and you can definitely make a difference to this too. Even though I don't know how (i think you've already had excellent advice and i have no experience of this challenge) I know it because of your determination to do the very best for Charlie and your amazing perseverance ;D x
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot You mustn't feel bad Helen, you have done so much for Charlie... Kate's idea is a good one - I think he needs desensitization to the presence of other dogs on a lead. It does sound like nervousness on his part. I am certain you and your husband can get this sorted. Xx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Thank you, do you think I could use my clicker to help with this as he responds well to it and it might keep his focus on me/David? So when he sits and ignores a dog C&T. Helen xx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Definitely make use of the clicker in the way you described - great idea You definitely can fix this. I faced this problem with my old dog after a bad dog attack. After that he was terrified of being approached by other dogs on lead and would deal with it by barking, lunging and generally acting like he wanted to kill the other dog. But it was just fear. I did all the stuff mentioned in this thread and it slowly made the difference. Eventually I got my calm dog back. Eventually, when we saw another dog, he'd just look at me for his treat, rather than getting out the bazookas. That thing I mentioned about saying hello to the other handler - that would visibly relax him. It was like he'd go "Oh, ok, that person and their dog are our friends. I don't need to worry as much". When approached with an on-lead dog I'd say "Hello! How's it going" or "Hi! Lovely day!" when they were about 10-15m away. Not strictly following human social convention (felt a bit of a fool) but every little bit helped!
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Hi Helen, I know from things written by the others that you haven't had an easy time with Charlie so it is outstanding what you have achieved with him.You will sort this out successfully.I still drink up all the advice I read in posts like this rather than being able to give it as Dexter is our first dog,so I don't have any nuggets for you on this subject,so ill just say good luck with working on it
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot I've heard also that sometimes dogs act more aggressively on lead because they are physically attached to the most powerful being they know, mainly you, which gives them more confidence than they would normally have. But not sure that applies here - given Charlie's background it seems more like a fear based reaction. One step at a time - if you've worked your way through lots of other issues as you say, then this is just one more (I know, big sigh. I feel your pain!). ;D
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Thanks ladies. Rachael thank you for your input and telling me about your experience with this issue. I will use the clicker and hope for the best. I am sure I will sort it out but it just seems to be yet another thing to work on and it's been a pretty tough almost 2 years with Charlie David is away for 2 weeks from Monday in the USA so I will be walking him and I am just a little worried which I don't want to be as Charlie is a big boy and I need to remain relaxed in these situations. In your experience how long do you think this could take to sort out? I know how long is a piece of string! My guilt is my biggest problem, we spent so long sorting him out that we failed him in the most important part of training and the sad thing is he likes dogs and we have had dogs into our home, he is good off lead and has even played with a very nasty Jack Russell in the paddock. Oh well onwards and upwards yet again. Helen xx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot I really don't think that you have failed this dog. You have saved this dog. You have come such a long way, it’s amazing. I really admire you for all that you’ve achieved. You are a good trainer and don’t let anyone say otherwise, including yourself. The major period for socialisation with other dogs starts and ends at a fairly early age. That is long past for Charlie. I don’t think that Charlie’s relative lack of doggie social time over the past few months would have had much impact. I think that what Karen says here is on the money: [quote author=Karen link=topic=1987.msg16614#msg16614 date=1373738084]Charlie is not an aggressive dog, Helen. You've had a tough time recently; I am certain he has picked up on this and is now worried and uncertain what caused your unhappiness. He probably now needs reassurance that the world is a good place, that other dogs are fine, and that you don't need to be protected from them. You'll sort it. Xx [/quote] It will possibly take some months before Charlie can walk past another dog on a loose lead. Maybe longer. But you should start seeing improvement quickly. You are far more experienced than I was when I was dealing with a similar problem. It took me ages to work out that my dog was actually afraid. Finally, when the penny dropped (after reading lots) I started doing things that actually targeted the problem and showed him a better way to behave. If you can rope in someone with a steady dog that’s be great. Here are a few exercises you can do to build up tolerance, confidence and self-control: 1. Have the other dog (Dog A) sit facing the handler. Walk Charlie up to the dog from behind then, getting his attention, to a quick U-turn and walk away. Repeat. Start with a lot of distance and gradually reduce. This gives you an ‘emergency U-turn’. 2. Same as exercise 1, but this time Charlie is the dog sitting and Dog A is approaching from behind. Keep Charlie’s focus on you. This is a big challenge for the sitting dog. Start with lots of distance. 3. Both handlers walk towards each other with their dogs, passing right shoulder to right shoulder and dogs on the left. The humans are in between the dogs. Start with a big gap and gradually reduce. 4. Same as exercise 4 but this time pass left shoulder to left shoulder (dog still on left). There is nothing in between the dogs. Big gap at first. 5. Same as 3 and 4 but this time do it in two circles. Charlie walks in a bigger circle on the outside, Dog A in a smaller circle on the inside. Pass right shoulder to right shoulder, dogs on your left. Humans are in between dogs. Big gap at first and gradually make the circle smaller. 6. Same idea as 5 but now pass left shoulder to left shoulder. Dogs on the left. Nothing in between dogs. Start big, gradually reducing circle. 7. Same as 5 but now Charlie is on the middle circle. Pass right shoulder to right shoulder, dogs on your left. Humans are in between dogs. Big gap at first and gradually make the circle smaller. 8. Same as 7 (Charlie on the middle circle) but pass left to left, dogs on the left. Nothing between dogs. With all these things you will first have to be able to get Charlie’s attention on cue (I’m sure you have that covered). Stay upbeat and happy sounding and use your voice to keep his focus on you. Use the clicker and awesome treats. C&T for looking at you as he nears or passes the other dog and also C&T for looking at the other dog but then immediately looking back at you. If you can’t enlist the help of another handler/dog, don’t worry. Just use the appearance of other dogs on walks as an opportunity to do some work on passing the other dog, keeping Charlie’s attention, and rewarding him for keeping his cool. As Karen says, cross the road or go to the other side of the field if you have to.
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Rachael thank you for your help and kind words, but me a good trainer never in a million years. I have learnt from you guys Another good socialising walk today with the same dogs as yesterday, all met and ambled around together with no problems. Just need to meet some others now, maybe some males. Helen x
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot That's fantastic. Maybe you are relaxing a bit more and it's helping...? Great news, anyway, that today is going well for you and Charlie
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Helen, I have learned LOADS from this forum, but not had the tenacity to put all the information to good use like you have. Don't under-sell yourself - I would definitely put you in the GREAT trainer category jac
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Hi Helen, lovely to have you back, and I feel for you with this one as Cuillin has similar issues around dogs, and it can be really stressful for her and me.... Cuillin's issues are the opposite of most dogs, her issues are off rather than on lead, she'll bark at dogs to make them go away when off lead, she is fine on lead. It's taken me ages to really get my head around what is going on with her, like Rachael's dog its all about fear with her, so along with desensitising her very slowly, I am currently learning about ways to show her that barking is not the only response, there is a different and better way to react which will make her to feel safe. This is tricky as in Cuillin's case the reaction has been allowed (by me!) to go on for some time now, wee soul. She is going to start a Reactive Rovers Class soon, and I have been pointed in the direction of Behavioural Adjustment Therapy for dogs by quite a few trainers now - this is about rehabilitating dog reactivity by looking at why the dog is reactive and helping him or her meet his needs in other ways. So just what Rachael said. In a nutshell, its a dog-friendly application of ‘functional analysis’ that gives the dogs a chance to learn to control their own comfort level through 'peaceful means' - ie showing them a better way to behave....it employs a lot of the same sorts of exercises as Rachael outlines. I'm a bit geeky so I find reading about this kind of stuff useful, and its helped me understand more about why C reacts the way she does, good books on Amazon on it.....The other thing I've realised is the impact my feelings have on Cuillin, as Karen says they pick up on our vibes so much, and some dogs more than others. Brodick seems to sail through the world completely laid back, but Cuillin is really sensitive and will pick up on handler nerves/stress and react accordingly. That said, its really difficult to not feel stressed if you are! so I guess I just wanted to say I know how you feel, but it sounds like you are getting on top of this already, and much sooner than I did and I have every confidence that you will nail this before me too, given your sucess with Charlie in the past!! We can swap progress updates...
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Thanks Debsie, I look forward to swapping progress reports!! Helen xx
Re: Socialisation has gone to pot Hi Jac, don't know if it's tenacity, stupidity or sheer desperation . Thank you for your support as always. Hope you had a great holiday. Helen xxxx
