Hi all We are currently looking to buy a yellow lab puppy and to give it a loving home. We have been looking for a while and have been to see some gorgeous yellow pups from what we think is an established breeder (i don't want to name them at the moment). We are new to this puppy buying process and are quite green to be honest. We paid a deposit for one but have since found out that the puppy's mother doesn't have a hip score! The father does. Should i be worried? should i walk away and lose my deposit? or should i ask further questions? your help and views would be gratefully appreciated.
Hi, There is some really good info here about all the different health tests, what they mean, and their importance. http://www.lab-health.co.uk/tests.html Arguably, Elbows probably belongs in the Essential section nowadays. Hip scoring has a lot of attention for many many years as it's mandated for any breeder signed up to the Kennel Club Assured Breeder scheme. Yet, there is scoring for Elbows too and the KC do not insist on this. Because Hips are checked more commonly, I fear that Elbows are becoming the "new" problem because less screening has been done. The fact that the KC still consider Elbow scores only an optional extra is doing the breed a great disservice IMO. Are the parents both Kennel Club registered? If so you can check here exactly what tests they have or haven't had here : http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...teselect/test/ (you need to know their registered kennel names, not their pet names). If you can't get a match and there are any apostrophes in the name try removing them. It used to be thought that by Hip and Elbow scoring both parents gave a reasonable indication of how their litter will shape up. Even though you can get variations in a litter. Some pups might get identical hips/elbows to the parents, some might be better, some might be worse. There are no absolutes in nature, The way I look at it, they swing the odds in your favor, but come with no guarantees. But that's still good enough for me, I'd rather have better odds than none! The latest thinking is that just looking at the parents is not good enough, you need to take into account their ancestors, and there's and so on. Perhaps because how things can skip a generation etc. You rarely see that detail in breeder adverts, but the Kennel Club have come up with a system called Estimated Breeding Values. The results are based on every member of their family tree that the KC now about. These EBV's produce risk ratings for possible hip/elbow problems (and more) from any particular mating. BUT the results are only as good as to how much ancestry the KC health database knows about. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/serv...v/Default.aspx For DNA tests however (PRA, EIC, SDS and more) the results are absolute. Either they have the "bad" gene or they don't. But for Hips and Elbows, whilst genetics are under strong suspicion too, the genes responsible simply haven't been identified yet. Hence they rely on probabilities and scoring. It's a tough one. You could go buy a Lab from a bedroom breeder out of your local ads, and they could be fit as a fiddle. Or they could be a bag of spanners. There's no two ways about it though. A dog with Elbow or Hip problems is going to live a life in pain and with reduced mobility. Often they can be corrected through surgery, but if they are not chronically bad, the conditions are just managed through medication. A dog recovering from hip or elbow surgery needs constant supervision and restricted exercise/rehabilitation for several months afterward. if you are insured up to the eyeballs and could live with that, great and good for you Would I choose a puppy with no Elbow scores on the parents and a missing Hip score? Personally I would not. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't, it all depends on your attitude to risk.
Hi there and welcome. I'm sorry to hear that the pup you were hoping to buy does not have a hip score. I would not buy a pup from an unscored bitch. I don't know where you are located but in the UK and USA hip scoring is considered essential and no responsible breeder would breed from a bitch that had not been tested. This is hard for you to hear if you have formed an attachment to the pup.
Hi and welcome. I don't really have much to add except that I personally would not buy a puppy where one parent has not had the proper tests. Here in France it is compulsory for hips, elbows and eyes to be tested with the results lodged. Without the tests the puppies can not be registered. That said my chocolate girl has elbow dysplasia despite her parents having 0/0 elbow scores.
If you don't mind me asking (and this has come up on other threads here before). Why in 2015 does this make no mention of Elbows? http://www.thelabradorsite.com/health-screening-for-labrador-diseases/ You must realise new puppy buyers could read that, think they have done everything right, and then out of nowhere they get an ED diagnosis. Surely surely surely they are becoming just as an important as hips. Even though the KC is stuck in the dark ages on this.
From researching before deciding on a Labrador puppy I was very aware of not only the hip and eye problems but also of elbow dysplasia. All the websites I visited which had breed information mentioned it very clearly. That of course does not mean that after researching breeders/puppies you're not devastated when you get a diagnosis of ED. My understanding, from personal research, is that the KC do not insist upon elbow scores unlike hips, but where they are available they recommend that only dogs with 0/0 scores are used for breeding purposes. 0/0 scores represent no malformation of the elbow so to my mind any other score represents a dog with elbow dysplasia. The current problem is that dogs with 0/0 scores can produce puppies with elbow dysplasia (like my Juno) as it can skip 4 or 5 generations before becoming evident. The general consensus is that ED is genetically carried but due to the complexity and variation seen within ED it is believed that more than 1 gene is responsible therefore making it much harder to identify and produce a test. Personally, although I have some doubts about the value of the x-rays for ED, I would not buy a puppy whose parents elboes had not been tested - here in France it is a compulsory test prior to breeding for registration. That said I agree with JohnG that Elbow Dysplasia should be included on the LabradorSite. Testing may not be mandatory, only recommended, but it is most definitely a health problem in Labradors.
I researched breeders and bought a pup with parents who had good hip and elbow scores, and not carrying the PRA gene. But I never even thought to ask about allergies or epilepsy, of which my boy suffers from both. He does appear to have excellent joints, but having an allergic dog is no fun, very painful watching him scratch and chew himself so much. And of course it was also painful to watch him have seizures (he is now medicated, and the medication can cause its own set of problems). We only found out later that his mother suffers from allergies although the breeder said her vet said it would not affect her offspring. I have subsequently heard from vets that Labs tend to suffer more from epilepsy and skin allergies that many other breeds, but then I also hear of Lab owners who have Labs with no problems at all. Next time, I will buy from a breeder who has a history of healthy puppies who grow into healthy adults and not go solely on scores from the parents. Our boy has the most beautiful personality, and having met his mother, I can see that much of it is inherited. So we scored hugely in that regard.
What a dilemma. All I can do is give you a bit of my experience in this area. I wouldn't pretend to be knowledgeable, but I do have some direct experience through my Labrador bitch, Lady, now six years old with ED that has been managed, and she's pretty fit and works in the winter, but she's not entirely without problems. As I understand it the object of only breeding from parents with good hip scores is to breed out eventually an underlying genetic weakness. I think the bottom line is that good hip score with both parents reduces the risk of puppies having the problem but the risk is not zero. My dog has ED in both elbows but both parents had good hip scores. Her brother has no joint problems whatsoever. So a bit of a lottery really. If the dog has got joint problems then the potential vet bills can be huge. My dog had both elbows operated on about 3 years ago plus a related procedure because the prognosis was good if the ops were done asap. We took her to Noel Fitzpatrick - he's really expensive! The total cost then was the thick end of £5000. She's pretty much fine now but will ultimately get arthritis in her elbows as she ages, probably earlier than a fully fit dog and then the bills will start up again. I had very comprehensive whole life insurance at the time that paid all the bills. It got way too expensive to continue after Lady was diagnosed and I reduced the cover with another provider, but of course any long term elbow problems won't be covered. If I was buying another pup, even if the parents had perfect scores, I'd get really good insurance for at least for first 3 years. You'll know by then if there are any joint problems or not. It's a quandry for you and of course you've seen the pup and already become attached, I'll bet. Can't really advise what to do other then we should try and discourage un-scored breeding as far as possible to improve the breeds long term health. The risk of problems buying from an un-scored parent may be higher than from parents with good scores, but the latter is by no means zero. At this stage, having chosen a pup and put down a deposit it's really just a question of do you want to take the "possibly" increased risk. How old is the mother and does she have any existing joint problems for example? Sorry - not helping am I, but Labs are lovely dogs and here's hoping ....
I agree with David , even if both parents have excellent results in all tests, it is by no means a guarantee that your pup will escape unscathed , over exercising or unsuitable exercising a young puppy/dog can create health problems all on their own , even from a puppy with a wonderful background history , plus there is also just pure rotten luck. However , I still believe the testing of both parents to be extremely important , as David states, to improve and illiminate as much as possible, those faults within the breed . For these reasons, tough as it is , I think I would walk way .
I agree with David, my girl is 9 months has severe ED in both elbows luckily she's insured as it has cost £6k for her operation. She has been breed with the utmost love and care, previous 2 litters no problems and this litter of 11 so far it appears my girl is the only one that has developed either elbow or hip Dysplasia. My breeder is so upset offers enormous support and will have Mabel back at anytime if I find it too much. We take Mabel to Hydrotherapy which we intend to continue for her life. It sounds very affordable at £21 per session but in her lifetime that's a lot of money. I know it's hard I'd walk away. Good luck with your decision. X
Having a girl with ED which has cost us in the region of £2500 despite having insurance - here in France the insurer refused to pay as she has an hereditary or congenital disease, I would not buy a puppy knowing that it doesn't come from health checked parents. Buying from health checked parents doesn't guarantee a puppy with no problems. Good luck with your decision, whatever it may be.
It is a bit of a lottery. Pups might be fine, but if they aren't, will you regret it? It's expensive and time consuming dealing with health problems not to mention the emotional costs. I have a 5 year old girl with HD, no ops (yet) but long term meds. Parents untested I would guess but I was ignorant of all this health testing lark before joining the forum. We love Lilly to bits and tell ourselves we are responsible and reliable and can afford to manage her condition where as the next person may not have. Trouble is you can't "un-know" what you know now. If it was me, I think I would walk away. I feel a bit like I am walking a tightrope. Breeders need to get the message and accept the gauntlet of responsible breeding.
