If I ever have another puppy, I would not be so keen to let them meet everyone. I would be inclined hunt out a good puppy class where controlled outside meet and greets are practised and introduce "hello/goodbye" cues early on.That means a cheery hello, and a cue for goodbye, this keeps interactions short and sweet. I went a bit overboard with dog-to-dog socialisation and gained a reputation for having a rather disobedient labrador (not my words...). Most labs are very sociable, so rationing hellos would in hindsight for Benson might have been better, and cut out hours and hours of extra training!
Looking at something and gazing are, I think, two different things. From time to time, Charlie and another dog can "lock gazes" and stand stock still across quite a distance. This is part of the eye-stalk-chase-capture sequence. If left interrupted, it WILL develop into a mad hoolie or an argument, as Mag says. It is hard to interrupt, and it is much better if the dog never starts doing this. Looking round a room full of other dogs, with a relaxed manner, I don't find at all worrying and I prefer that than to having my dog look at me constantly following a "watch me/look at me" cue.
Yes, I agree 100%. Watching other dogs is very different from gazing/staring. Our pups start puppy class very young (8 weeks) and it's amazing how young some of them start to do this. In fact, 'look at me' is the first command they all learn. Twiglet was at it form day one - probably due to the confidence of having a big dog at home!
I agree also, taking the world in and a stiff stare are entirely different beasts. With all due respect, I can't relate that interpretation to any professional texts on the subject of canine communication. “Staring is definitely viewed as a threat” (Coren, 2001) When a dog stares intensely at another it shows deep concentration, the animals body is stiff and it shows other signs of dominance” (Abrantes, 1997) There is no relationship at all between those gestures, and prelude to a game of chase. If it's a hoolie they were interested in, there will be expressions of friendlyness with an indirect approach, soft eyes, ears relaxed, mouth relaxed, body relaxed, a play grin, play dance or play bow. Yes there will be eye contact, but fleeting, never maintained as a stock-still stare. Two dogs locked in a stock-still stare are participating in a canine challenge, it is a threatening gesture and has no other meaning in that context. Normally the dominant or fearful dog initiates this, perhaps to say "don't come any closer" etc. Or they are simply squaring off to determine who is wearing the trousers in that greeting. There are further levels of escalation, each giving either dog a chance to back down and offer a submissive gesture, such as diverting their eyes away. Effectively saying "ok, you're scaring me now, you win!". If you interrupt that before it can reach a conclusion, expect this to repeat every time they meet each other. Now, if you let that play out under safe conditions, and one does back down, everyone carries on their merry way. A key point here is that it us humans who can so often mess up our dogs by intervening in these VERY normal parts of canine communication and social ritual. If you want to "damage" a dog such that they do not learn how to respond or learn when to back down, or that the very communication tools they were born with do very much work, there is no better way than our interfering with or inhibiting these very natural processes! Me too! But now we've worked through the training challenges this created, I doubtful I would do anything different. Though I would take a different view if we had more than one dog in the house, because they can then learn from each other. Gemma's social skills are outstanding, because she's always been encouraged to interact and play with other dogs starting at puppy class. And yes, just as that article says, she struggled to switch off and go into obedience mode. The positive side is that I have total confidence in her ability to freely interact with other off-lead dogs, read their intentions, and back down with submission at the first sign of trouble. For me, it's a quality of life thing. When Gemma is running free and playing with another dog, it is clear she's having the time of her life. Let dogs be dogs I say. And watching two dogs play is for me one of life's greatest pleasures. The decision HAS to be a personal one. If you want/need a dog who has little interest in their own species, with no compulsion to play or run off to say hello, fine. But I certainly don't, I want her to life her live to the full and be confident and happy in the company of her own kind with finely honed and well practiced communication skills to stay safe whilst doing so!
I don't agree with this, from observing my own two dogs. Willow will regularly stare at Shadow to initiate a game. It's a very intense, unwavering, stare with a stock-still body and she will hold it for a very long time before one of them "caves" and starts play-bowing.
Play = practice in all mammals. So a stare to initiate play will be very similar to a stare to initiate conflict. If you watch (and listen) two dogs playing 'bitey face' it's not a million miles away from a fight!
I agree with this 100% too JohnG. But we were talking about behaviour ON lead, not off. I want my two to walk with a slack lead, un-distracted by anything when on lead. Off lead I want them to run free and play well, recalling whenever I ask them
Ahh gotcha, sorry. I do get a little ahead of myself sometimes Yes, as a price to pay for the over-socialisation, maintaining focus on the lead was our biggest hurdle too, but we got there with a look at me heel plus a look at me cue.
With all due respect (I'm not being rude in saying that, just teasing your response ) I think you just need to observe dogs to see this. I've seen hundreds of young dogs, do a stock stare at each other (I walk in an incredibly busy place) and then it end up in a hoolie. My dog does it all the time. And he often lies down before starting a hoolie too.
Interesting discussion and I'm wanting to re-word what I was thinking in not allowing Myles gaze/stare. I do think those can be 2 different things. I'm speaking of an entirely on-lead situation, which we are in daily in our neighborhood walk. I see a common scenario which will start with 1 dog (across the street with his owner, on lead) and he will lock eyes with Myles and I, and Myles body language will immediately change. Ears up, pep in his step, just slightly shy of a hoolie. If I don't get his attention, either Myles or the other dog will react to eachother and you can have 2 dogs pulling on their leads or barking, etc. this is what I meant by thinking nothing good can come out of allowing it to go on. So getting Myles attention with a "look at me" has been very beneficial. In most cases he does not react to the other dog at all. Even if the other dog is being reactive. So for us, and because Myles does have a tendency to truly stare at things, I prefer to get his attention back on me. Knowing your dog may have more to do with this. My last dog could probably have laid on the sidewalk, without a lead on, and relaxingly just observed his environment. That's different.
My dog will definitely stare and stalk off-lead in prelude to a mad dash and play session. The stares I don't like are the on-lead ones, especially 'stiff and upright stares' or the 'locked eyes while straining forward on the lead' (which I am always quick to bring to an end if it's from my dog or get away from ASAP if it's from another dog). Staring is definitely a statement of intent (whether good or not so good). If you don't want it to be carried through on, then break the stare.
Reading through these posts has got me thinking I've been doing wrong the last week. My Dexter who is 15 weeks old and has been going out on walks for two weeks now, he loves people and since playing with other dogs is more interested in dogs to now. To stop him pulling towards people and other dogs, I started to get him to sit and watch as they pass. But he now has started barking, this is all on lead and my thoughts were that I was getting him to be calm and observe, but see now that I'm not doing the right thing. Do I just get his attention on me and keep walking? I need to sort this ASAP before I completely mess up. I have so much to learn. Dexter is wagging his tail and eagerly waiting for the fun of the person or dog to interact but then when nothing happens gets frustrated. Sometimes his mum (me) is such a numpty. Help needed please.
Don't worry, we are all still learning! Your idea of keeping on moving is a good one, and I would try that. Sitting still and watching can be a challenge, as there is nowhere for the energy to go and the temptation of the other dog is in their sights. But continuing to walk while focusing on you might be easier for your dog. Certainly other people have had more success with that approach. Another option is to get Dexter to do a few simple tricks while focused on you - touch your hand with his nose, spin, that kind of thing. I've also found that it helps a lot when we can notice the other dog coming and get in early with our attention cue, well before our dog has started to get into the excitement zone. Not always possible of course It is definitely ok for your dog to look at other dogs - but ideally you want him to then look back at you. That's kind of what you are aiming for, for Dexter to look at another dog, but then to be able to direct his attention back at you. Definitely mark and reward any moments when he looks back at you after looking at another dog. Try to miminise the length of time that he is continually gazing at another dog. You'll definitely get there and the issue you're dealing with here is common to almost all Lab owners
Thank you, Rachael, I can see my error in your reply clearer now. I was seeing the people and people with dogs and getting Dexter's attention onto me, then to sit and wait for the distraction to pass but loosing his attention. I'll get his attention and keep walking, making myself more interesting with treats. I think I was reducing the use of treats on this too soon, now I come to think about it. Certainly helps typing it all out and getting the confusion out of my head. Thank you.
If we do need to wait, doing some tricks would be more appealing to my little feller too. Never thought about that. ☺️
This is a technique - look at that - that has worked fabulously well with my dog. At the video of 4minutes is EXACTLY what I do with Charlie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdraNF2hcgA
It is also totally fine to be madly generous with treats when another dog goes by and you need your dog's attention - just keep dishing out those treats as fast as Dexter can eat them
That is a great video. I've never considered look at "that" instead of "me" but seems very similar in results. If I could pick 1 command that has been the most powerful in my training with Myles (who most definitely goes over his threshold if he is too close to a distraction), it would be "look at me". I use treats that can be torn into smaller treats, so when I need his attention longer, we will continue to walk forward after I've said "look at me" and he will watch intently while I tear the treat. But as she said in the video, distance is your friend. We still have a lot of work to do before we could let a dog walk as close by as the dog in the video .
