Re: Can't seem to transfer training Helen I feel your pain, I really do. My last lab was like Hattie, a dream to walk, I could take her anywhere and she would never go more than 20m from me with a solid recall. And then I got Tarkie, a very hunt-driven working strain lab. Any form of game was to be chased, including deer, of which we have a plague around here. She would take off on a hunt and be gone for ages, returning panting and exhausted with a completely distracted look on her face. I've trained working labs before but Tarkie was a challenge. Like your experience with Charlie, no matter how much recall or stop whistle training I put in, or how much work on a long line, it simply did not translate to outside off the lead. Essentially, when she caught the scent of game the "red mist" came down and I am sure she was so focused on the impending hunt she didn't even hear the recall or stop commands. Ultimately, I needed something to distract her from the hunt for just half a second to prevent the hunt-driven deafness and allow me to recall her. I chose to use a vibrating collar which also bleeped (NOT an e-collar). I used this whenever her body posture told me she was about to run off with a vibrate, then when she looked at me in surprise at the vibrate I would make it bleep to mark good behaviour ("charge" the bleep on the collar the same way you do a clicker) and then recall followed by reward using the bleep as you would a clicker. This has worked for us, and whilst I still avoid deer-infested zones to some extent as like Heidrun says if you have a hunt-driven dog temptation can be too much no matter how much training you do, we now walk and gundog train daily off lead through open fields, woods and rivers mainly without incident. Still can't take my eyes off her though, and if the family come with me and we all chat and my attention is not on her at vital moments then a relapse is on the cards unless I sharpen up. And she completely ignores my OH much to his chagrin although he never trains her. But there is hope, and I can now walk/train both of my two together without incident especially if I am alone. Sorry for the long rambling post but I really do sympathise and hope this helps.
Re: Can't seem to transfer training I must say that no one expects you to have a miserable life because of a dog especially for years on end. This doesn't mean that i suggest you do one thing or another or even setting out your choices. I'm just saying that your life and needs are just as important as the dog and you have a right to happiness.
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Lochan, thank you for your reply it's much appreciated and great to know it's not just Charlie that is a pain. Tarkie sounds exactly the same as Charlie although the panting and exhaustion are now a thing of the past as he is permanently on a training line/lead. This collar sounds expensive, what about the spray ones would you recommend those? I would love to chance letting him off lead and blowing my recall whistle as I am pretty sure he would respond, but I don't think I am allowed as have not reached that part of training. I feel quite lost as a pure novice, Hattie is our pet not a gundog, and all I have trained has been learnt from this forum and Pippa's book to try and help Charlie. I just want to walk and the thought of all this keeping my attention totally on him is quite stressful as I am practically tripping over Hattie and that's all I want. What makes me cross is the Fosterer from the rescue centre told me about a year after we had Charlie that the man that adopted him before us had Labs for 40 years and he returned Charlie after 1 month and said he just couldn't keep him, makes you think... I feel the rescue homes have an absolute moral duty to the family to give the full story about a dog and then that's your choice whether you take the challenge on or not, but not to be told and then have a challenge you didn't bargain for is totally wrong and I guess that's why dogs like Charlie are sent back into rescue. The foster lady has told me on more than one occasion how sorry she is and that she not have placed Charlie with us. Me and my family went to visit her along with Hattie to meet Charlie so she clearly knew what we after and she saw that Hattie is a big hairy beast and nothing like Charlie. If you had read his adoption plea you would have thought you were getting the perfect dog. If I had a scanner I would post it, maybe I will just type it up for anyone to read. Sorry for my rambling and yes it helps to know that an experienced owner such as yourself has faced this awful problem. Thank you again. Helen x
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Hi Helen I used the vibrating collar with bleep as it was waterproof and we walk by rivers daily. If you use a spray collar you need to make sure it is used as a distraction not an after-event punishment. The reason I note this is there can be quite a delay with some of the spray collars between you pressing the remote and a spray being delivered (half a second matters with this stuff!). Also I do know several dogs who very quickly learn to ignore the spray, possibly due to the delay between between the handler noticing the body language of the impending hunt and the spray actually being delivered. The vibrating collar I used was waterproof and pretty much instantaneous in delivery of the vibration and bleep. As far as not using a whistle command is concerned I found with Tarkie that she responds much better to whistle commands and hand signals than voice commands. With the best will in the world, at least with me, emotion is always heard in my voice commands especially in a stress situation. Tarkie would listen to this and if she was thinking about a hunt and heard me sounding stressed that seemed to convince her there really was something around worth hunting and she would hurtle off with even more enthusiasm! So for me, the answer was to gain her attention, instantly mark her good behaviour (looking at me) with a bleep and then recall whistle and reward for return - she has no interest in food rewards, her reward is a tennis ball or dummy throw, especially into the river. I love all the gundog training and it gives Tarkie something to do on walks rather than disappear into the next county on a hunt. I find walks are punctuated with a fair bit of management - heel work, marked retrieves, blind retrieves and lots and lots of work in the river. We both love it, and it seems to fulfil her instincts to hunt and retrieve enough that she no longer needs to self-employ. And if there is real game involved it's like all her birthdays have come at once....However, I completely understand it is not for everyone (OH hates it, he thinks I've got OCD with the dogs and he's probably right....), and I bought working strain pups with the full knowledge of what I was taking on. I could not agree more that a dog such as Charlie should not have been rehomed without a long list warnings about his issues. It is just unfair.
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Hi Lochan, thanks for your detailed reply. The collar sounds a bit too complex and if you get it wrong. I agree about the emotion, it's a real issue with me because when I'm stressed everyone knows it so no good for Charlie. I am still on Total Recall and am almost at the point of finding new locations to walk to put the last 9 months of whistle training into practise. Charlie is interested in tennis balls in our garden/paddock and that's it for him, again cannot transfer outside and the dummy is really a bit of issue for him but am trying to clicker train this. We handfeed Charlie for walks when he is really hungry so this has helped with his lack of interest in food rewards. I think he is constantly wired to hunt due to his absconding days and I hate the gundog stuff and don't really understand the allowing a dog to hunt even though it has been explained on this forum before is really scares me, so am really at a loss as how to keep him occupied, it seems hopeless. It's very difficult when you have a dog like Hattie and a dog like Charlie who is totally off the scale. David and I are pretty stressed out with the whole situation and really just don't want to take him out any more. Nearly 2 years of separate walks etc. is taking its toll, feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. Thanks for all your help. Helen x
Re: Can't seem to transfer training helen, nothing to add in terms of advice as I am way too much of a novice at all this, but just to share my own experiences, and to say I really understand how you feel, not that it helps much, but you are not alone. As you know I think, Lochan is my sister and I have Tarka's little brother Brodick, exactly the same hunting instinct as his big sister, and I had zero experience of dog ownership before I got my two. I used to walk my sister's old lab when my sister was on holiday, and we used to tootle along not a care in the world, no hunting dog, just scampering about. I had images of similar walks with my two, not a chance! Cuillin is like Hattie in that despite coming from strong working lines she will chase after a rabbit/squirrel/duck with great enthusiasm, but will get bored relatively quickly, and doesn't like me out of her sight at all, so will rush back looking worried until she sees me. she is easy to walk when it comes to hunting, however her dog fears/reactivity mean I have to be constantly scanning the horizon, especially now while I am really working on trying to lower her reactions/threshold to dogs approaching. Add the wired young hunter Brodick to the mix and my walks sound a bit like yours! and brodick is the most laid back, wussy, soft sack I have ever met, even by labrador standards, Charlie sounds similar around the house, a lovey boy.... brodick can't bear me to be even three feet away from him if he can't get to me, UNLESS there is wildlife around, then he is like a dog possessed....he has finally got into dummies, and loves to retreive them, but even then if he catches the scent of something else he will literally spin ninety degrees away from the direction he was running in to get the dummy, and sprint off after the more compelling scent. I can't take my eyes off him around wildlife. we go to beaches a lot as we all get to chill out. I enjoy doing the gun doggery stuff, I'm not great at it, but see it as really another way of playing with my dogs, but it does make walking with friends difficult, as they get completely ignored while I focus on the dogs and dummies. So I really do know how you feel, and I understand how stressful walks can feel with hard wired hunters...Debs
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Debsie thank you for your post. No beaches to run on and even if we were near enough Charlie would most probably take off. If you love the gundog stuff I can see it would be fun, but we just don't and it wasn't what we signed up for so makes it difficult. David is back in 9 days and we are going to discuss what to do, as we can't go on like this for the foreseable future and it's not fare on Charlie. :'( Helen x :'(
Re: Can't seem to transfer training I feel you have come to the end of the road with Charlie and you both may well be happier if you parted. You have worked so hard but I think there is a big mismatch between you. Good luck with whatever you end up doing, don't beat yourself up if you decide to rehome him. Stacia
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Whatever you decide to do I think we all understand how tough it's been and how particularly tough it is right now.
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Helen, I have complete sympathy for you and your discouragement. I know how discouraged I have gotten with Simba at times and we've only had him for a short time. But what keeps me going is the thought that at some point things will change and I won't be always be afraid of "what now???" If I truly thought that things will be as they are now with no other improvement, I would certainly be taking a cold eyed look at his future with us too. You cannot be held hostage to a dog - in the end, your health and happiness DOES weigh harder on the scales than his. From all you and others have said, you have done your very best to overcome the issues that you were presented with. I know that you will do the best to ensure that he go to the best situation possible, if that is indeed your decision. The important thing is not to think that you are a failure OR that you have somehow failed Charlie. You have persevered longer than others would have, likely!! Sending you hugs and support!!!
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Helen, you have my support and sympathy, whatever your decision is. You have worked so hard with Charlie, and really truly you have done your best for him. If you decide to soldier on, you know the members of this forum will give you all the help we possibly can. but if you just cant go on - we'll understand that too. Chin up sweetie! Brave but calm. Xx
Re: Can't seem to transfer training I can only echo everyone else. I think you've done brilliantly with Charlie. Whatever you decide to do you have our support x
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Hi helen. We all wish we could help more. Just don't beat yourself up, whatever your decision. You have to do what's right for YOU. xx
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Just wanting to add my support for you Helen , whatever the outcome xx
Re: Can't seem to transfer training Ah Helen,everyone Is thinking about you....just look at all these posts xxx
