Frosty the stud dog is pure show line, bred by a very experienced breeder in my area who also breeds Pointers. The dam looks to be more work than show, the advert suggests she's a mix of the two. Will they give you her KC name? If you can get this info you can look up pedigrees, health tests, progeny, CoIs and all sorts of info on MyKC. Have you found the Champdogs site, it seems to be used by breeders who health test, there's some very nice Labrador litters on there. I have my name down for a pup from a litter on Champdogs, Show bred Dam x Working bred Sire, both health tested and with a CoI of only 0.2%. I think health wise I've done all I can and it'll just be pure bad luck if there's a problem.
We used the champdogs website, it was really useful for us. When you find a possible breeder, do post it here and see if anyone knows about them!
TJBO8 I have read what happened with your pup and it is sounds like a harrowing experience; I really hope you find the pup you are looking for soon. We have been searching for our first family pet labrador since the summer. I came across this forum 1 week after putting a deposit down on a puppy I found on pets4homes. Needless to say after doing much reading here I had misgivings about the litter I had seen- the mother had not been health tested, the father reportedly had but I was shown no documentation. We decided to walk away, losing our deposit but having learnt a valuable lesson. Having done lots of reading we are now very excited to be collecting a pup next week- she has health tested parents, certificates of which I have seen- both have clear eyes, good elbow and hip scores, and the dad is genetically clear for cnm and dwarfism. The pup is from working lines though the mother is kept as a family pet. This is the breeders first litter but I found her on champdogs, she has been very friendly and open and ticks all the boxes of what I should be looking for. Having read this thread I have just looked up the coI and it is 8.1% for this litter. Is this something to be concerned about? I thought this time I had done everything by the book...never thought getting a puppy would be such a minefield!!
8.1% is only a tiny fraction over the breed average and nothing at all to worry about, please don't let that put you off what sounds like a lovely litter from a breeder you're happy with. My Pointer was line bred and had a COI of 23% which is way over the average, he had a very happy, healthy life. A high % doesn't mean you'll have an unhealthy dog, just that there is a higher chance of a health problem the higher the percentage is.
8.1% is 1.6% higher than the breed average of 6.5%, and so is 25% higher than the kennel club recommends - and indeed the recommendation is as low as possible, with the breed average being viewed as the maximum. The only thing that it's possible to say is the lower the CoI the better. No-one can tell you whether you should or shouldn't worry. The CoI isn't a deciding measure of puppy health, and it's difficult to find 'the perfect' puppy, and the perfect breeder. Usually people end up compromising on something. My latest puppy has a CoI just below average and I would have liked it to have been lower. I discussed this with the breeder, and she went through why she choose the dog she did, and her balanced decision between the characteristics she wanted, and keeping the CoI low, and in the end I decided that was a balance I was happy with. So you could try asking the breeder of the pups? There is a good article here: http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/a-beginners-guide-to-coi/
So the above mentioned litter have all been sold. But the breeder put me in touch with another lady who she uses for a stud dog. She has a litter from a black mum and a yellow dad (Burbuja Bennett). Both are her dogs. The dads details look very good - hip scores 3/4, elbows 0, inbreeding coefficient 1%, all other health tests on the KC site clear. The mum (ebony winfield ) has a coefficient of 3.1% but no hip scores or other health checks. Which seems strange. This is the dams second and last litter (she only breeds them twice). She keeps her dogs outside but the puppies will be reared the whole time indoors. They will be vaccinated, vet checked with a written report, and microchipped. Worming treatment already underway. They are currently 4 weeks old. But she only has boys. A boy is something I could compromise on as I was reasonably open to either sex although would slightly prefer a female (in part because it would be easier in the office as the other 2 dogs -one is there occasionally (already spayed) and one would be there all the time (is a female cockerspaniel who is almost 4 months now). So I imagine would be in season March/April time. I know they are planning on getting her spayed after her first season.) So I could compromise on having a boy, but not so sure about the fact the mum hasn't had health checks. It's is a tricky business! I've got to remember and keep hope there will be a "right enough" pup out there somewhere!
I would never compromise on no hip and elbow scores. Ever. It's just too risky and it's far too easy to find puppies that do have health-tested parents to even contemplate it, in my opinion. The CoI of the individual dogs is far less relevant than the CoI of the resultant puppies. So put them into Mate Select and see what they come out with.
Thanks guys that was my gut instinct. Please can I say firstly how much I've appreciated your support over the last week especially. I was feeling all disheartened and then I came across this... "Twig" http://www.champdogs.co.uk/dog/59121 (hips 3/3, elbows 0, eyes clear, CNM AND EIC clear) And "Suede" http://www.wylanbriar.com/stud-dogs/ (hips 4/4, elbows 0, eyes clear, CNM AND EIC clear) Inbreeding coefficient of pairing is 2.9% (6.1 and 4.6). She has had 6 brown and 1 yellow(a girl). The yellow is the only one available - it was taken but when the family visited at 5 weeks the breeder said no to them because they really weren't suitable (kids not well behaved with the dogs, mum didn't really want a dog!) so she is advertising it. Seemed a good sign to me. Just spent 45 minutes on the phone to the breeder. A vetinary nurse who has 5 labs and uses them as gun dogs as well as pets. Her dam is small and a full working dog and so she wanted to breed with a dog that had some show line in him to make sure they didn't get any smaller/too extreme working line to be able to be good pets. Ticks all the boxes for raised indoors (all her dogs live indoors), wormed, microchipped, KC registered. And just a good sense from her that she really knows her stuff and wants the best for her dogs. She is keeping one pup so wanted to breed good ones (she knows the stud dog from shoots and had spent 2 years researching the match). The mum is coming up for 3 years in March and it's her first litter. The puppy would be available mid January. It's more expensive than others (£850) but that to me would appear worth paying for what I hope would be a healthy dog, from a responsible owner who has a lot of experience and knowledge. I think I will arrange for a visit over the weekend and then take it from there... But feeling more hopeful!
I was considering the Wylabriar boys (more Tom, but I did look at Suede too), before I found my preferred breeder, who is a bit more showy. The yellow must be a dudley? That is, without black pigment, so liver nose, eye rims and mouth? Not that it matters a jot in a pet, but it's generally "undesirable" and some people don't like the look of them. Others find them very cute and unusual! Just be aware that, if she is a dudley, you will probably have to put up with people commenting on it all the time! It sounds like a good litter, though, so if you like her, then I hope she's a good fit
Oh I am so pleased for you that it sounds like you have found a breeder that you can trust. My boy has a pink nose (but his eye rim and mouth are dark) and I think it is cute. Fingers crossed for your visit at the weekend.
I train from time to time with Wylanbriar and have met most of the dogs as Di brings them along to class and uses them in demonstrations. The classes consist of 30-50% Wylanbriar offspring and they all seem to be super both as pets and gundogs. So this puppy would get my vote!
Good luck! I think @snowbunny is right, and the yellow must be bbee in colour. That might not matter to you - and there is no reason it should. You might end up with an unusual looking dog though (and not just because of the colour, the working line chocolate has a special look too....). Up to you to decide whether this is unique and special and something you like - but both parents look athletic and healthy.
Thanks for flagging that up. As I don't wish to show her it will just be about whether I like the appearance, so it will be good to visit and see.
Yes, exactly. Betsy (my youngest) was from a litter with all three colours. And some of the yellows had black pigment, and some brown. It just so happens the yellow dogs with brown pigment had quite dark brown pigment - it can vary - and I thought they looked smashing! Very lovely. Betsy has black pigment, because that's what I wanted. But her sister and brother with brown pigment were very good looking! So just go see....
Well it was a very successful visit! I combined it with a weekend trip to see friends who lived relatively nearby so that I wouldn't feel under any pressure to go for the puppy just because I had travelled all that way, or anything like that. I really liked the lady. I met mum first and then her the lady's other 3 dogs. All very healthy looking, beautiful coats, very friendly but not overbearing, great recall. Then we went to meet the puppy's which have been bred indoors the whole time (in fact all her dogs are kept indoors). The puppies are in a large pen in the conservatory. All very clean with newspaper and bedding. The dam would still feed if she let her, but so they still have contact and play with mum, she puts a coat on the dam so she can't feed, but then each day they have time with mum still. Pups responded positively to her voice and came to say hello. She brought two out (both the yellow I am interested in and a chocolate one). The first thing that really struck me was how soft, clean and well they looked...now having seen them I realise how unwell Sammy was. The were curious and wanting to play but not frantic. Also whilst they investigated my hands and licked and sniffed there was no biting. They are currently 7 weeks old and so only a week younger than Sammy was and yet there was none of the constant biting. And for the whole hour I was there they didn't scratch once! I picked up her and checked her for hernias and also the skin on her tummy which were both fine. She is a Dudley as mentioned on this thread. Her nose is brown but her eyes are dark/black. I didn't have any issue with the look of her (she was gorgeous!) The puppies played with me but also with each other and with toys out. And then settled down on the mat next next to me. I saw the KC paperwork and the Heath test results. They are going to be microchipped and seen by a vet this week. I asked a million questions and she seemed to be very honest with her answers. So it was all really positive visit. All the head knowledge checked out but I also felt good and hopeful and excited about her. My only query is I asked about a contract of sale. She said because she isn't a KC assured breeder she doesn't have one but she could draw up one for me individually. Is this normal (not to have one as standard)? And would it be a good idea to ask her to do one?
