I cannot agree with not giving advice

I am sorry, but I cannot agree with not giving advice to people who come onto the forum asking for advice/help when they have underage puppies. I have just read a post and it is like a slap in the face. Surely there is a kinder way to say the forum doesn't agree with puppies leaving their mother underage. These are the very people who need help, they may come from a country who doesn't have the animal welfare we do, therefore they need help and more importantly, so does the unfortunate puppy.

I think a kinder way of saying no help is available due to the Forum rules and if possible one of the moderators could say they are the rules but would give some brief advice and make sure they are welcome back to the forum when puppy old enough.

 

I didn't know this was forum policy, but I just found this thread:

https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/forum-policy-on-underage-puppies.11455/

Quote: I want to ensure that my websites don't in any way endorse or encourage this practice of selling underage puppies.

 

I agree with @Stacia, I find it very upsetting when the 'rules' are the only information these owners receive. The puppies health should come first no matter what the forum practice is. The owners should feel welcome back to the forum, but I see most of them don't return so we never know what's happened to the puppies. x

 

This is the comment that should accompany locking these threads:

Moderator Note: Sadly, in some parts of the world there is a tragic trade in tiny puppies barely able to walk. On the Labrador site we frequently get comments from people who have purchased puppies as young as 21 days old. Their owners will usually need help from a qualified veterinary professional if the puppy is to survive and thrive.

Our forum policy is to encourage people to wait until their puppy is eight weeks old before collecting it from the breeder. To make sure we are not encouraging the trade in underage puppies, nor depriving these puppies of essential veterinary attention, we have the following rule.

If a forum member’s puppy has been removed from the breeder/ mother before the age of seven weeks, that member must wait until their puppy is seven weeks old before posting about him or her on the forum

We recommend that anyone with a puppy under this age contacts their vet without delay for instructions on feeding, general care, and medical treatment. We understand that members want to help these puppies, but the forum is not the right place to be distributing specialist advice of this nature.

We have discussed this long and hard on the mod board, and tweaked the wording to try to make it as helpful as possible. But, the fact remains that this is not an appropriate place to discuss very young puppies.

I'll raise this post on the mod board to discuss your thoughts.

 

Thanks Fiona. x

 

Perhaps a compromise would be for the mods/admins to give the unfortunate puppy owner help/advice privately behind the scenes.
At least then the owner receives some help and is more likely to stick around when the pup is old enough.

The rules can still be adhered to that way and the post still locked, but with perhaps a little message from a mod/admin that advice has been given????

Just a thought.

 

I don't understand why the same rule doesn't apply to those who purchase from disreputable breeders who fail to do the health checks? That would be harder to define and determine though. Sometimes there is a valid reason to bring a puppy home early. Why not help and educate for the next time? Wouldn't that help more in the long run? Surely we wouldn't suggest a new owner return a too young puppy or a poorly bred dog? They can be loved just as well as any other dog.

I also wonder about the legalities of refusing help to someone who has not broken any laws. Some US states have a puppy age law and under 8 weeks it is not legal to sell or to buy or to import. Sadly we have no such law in any province in Canada, not anywhere, I think.

Often it would be prudent to recommend a VEt visit, as with many posts. But not always. For instance a warning that a too young puppy might not have learned bite inhibition from Mum and siblings would not require a Vet. But we could help.

 

I agree...I think a balanced approach would be best. Explain why it's harmful to have a puppy at such a young age, but then give them help and advice moving forwards, as the deed is already done and our obligation should be for the welfare of the little pup. I don't think giving advice is going to lead to more cases of people acquiring underage puppies...it's happening regardless because people are ill informed, breeders are greedy, and so on. I think it's amazing they find this forum and come here for advice, given that whatever situation they're in that led them to acquire such a young pup in the first place must not be the most forward-thinking of environments, and this group is where they're going to find the best advice for raising a happy companion.

 

I am happy to discuss this rule.

There are some factors we need to take into account though.

One is the suitability of an Internet forum as a source of specialised health advice, and the availability of that specialised advice
Another is the trade in underage puppies, and how best to prevent it.

Very few people are 'qualified' to advise others on raising puppies that are 21 days old. This is the kind of age at which puppies are being sold to unsuspecting families in India for example.

How many people on this forum, apart from me, have experience in raising puppies from birth? And out of those people, how many have experience in raising puppies that are sickly and in need of urgent veterinary attention?

In almost every case, the puppy needs to be under the care of an experienced breeder or a qualified vet. And there is a reluctance on the part of many new puppy owners to pay for a vet when they can get the information they think they need on a public forum.

Then we have to ask ourselves, if we facilitate the care of underage puppies (even if that were possible), are we simply encouraging this unpleasant trade to continue. My feeling is that we probably are. But I'm willing to listen to other views.

 

Nothing will ever stop bad breeders or puppy farms but we don't turn those owners away do we? Surely the few owners that come to the forum for help with an underage puppy should be helped in whatever way possible. We aren't qualified vets so giving specific health advice could be dangerous but giving good sound advice, urging them to seek immediate vet help, some will and some won't but we must try and hopefully they will stay on the forum.

We must not turn them away as heaven only knows what they will do with a sick puppy that they don't know how to deal with. It shouldn't be the ethos of this great forum. It doesn't make sense to me in any way.

I can't do politics where animals are concerned as it has no place for me, the health, quality of life and future wellbeing of these little puppies is all I care about. x

 

It does come across as very blunt to me too. I understand we absolutely CANNOT give advice, other than "please take your pup to a vet". (and any posts that try to give health advice to an underage puppy should be removed). But we could listen sympathetically. Let the poster talk about their puppy and their troubles. We want them to hang around, maybe learn about positive training, which they may know nothing about. I want all posters to feel supported.

 

I agree completely with @charlie and @edzbird so I wont bother repeating, but both making valid points, in my humble opinion anyway x

 

I don't really understand what you mean by 'politics' in this context. And I think we all share your concerns about puppy welfare. That is what this is all about. There is no other motive in turning people away but the welfare of puppies current and future ..

 

I should probably add that these are not 'just a few' isolated incidents. Though it is true to say that the numbers of emails and comments on the main site on very young puppies are diminishing. I'd like to think that this is partly due to the educational material we put out on the site, though of course it's entirely possible that it's because people have learned not to keep asking...

 

. Well, we don't buy puppies from pet shops any more do we - even though they definitely need saving. We don't do it, because we know that they will be replaced by more puppy farmed puppies. So while the puppy in the cage in front of you might benefit if you take him home, the puppy that replaces him won't. It's not exactly the same but it's the same principle.

I am not saying that we shouldn't change the rule, I'm trying to explain that it exists because we care, and because after hours of discussion, it seemed to be the better way.

We can try a different way if the consensus is in favour of that. And if the other mods are happy to supervise it.

 

We don't in the UK but some countries still do. Like you have always said Pippa, we have to deal with different cultures from around the world some that don't have any animal welfare at all so these owners need good sound advice not to have that long harsh forum rules and regulations glaring at them.

This current rule is not care but quite the opposite to me. x

 

I feel like the countries where this is going to be most prevalent are going to be countries where positive training principles aren't the norm, therefore are we doing more harm by turning these people away? Now they'll have underage puppies that are getting beaten in order to teach them obedience, rather than being shown a different way? I don't think helping these people is going to lead to an increase in underage puppies, I think there will always be underage puppies so long as these countries stay uneducated. If we can educate an individual, they may then go on to educate another in their society who may never find this forum.

 

. I acknowledge that you care very much. The current rule is about caring too. It's just about a different way to achieve puppy welfare, looking at puppies both present and future, rather than at puppies present in isolation. I am sorry if I have been unable to make that clear.

I can't imagine why else people think we made the rule??

 

@SilverFalcon I think this is aimed more at owners with sick, non feeding underaged puppies that need immediate advice. Training positively is of course extremely important too. x

 

Perhaps you are right. What do others think?