I have a new 12 week old black labrador pup. We got him at 8 weeks old. He is beautiful. His name is Max. We are training him using positive reinforcement only at the moment. A far cry from what I was used to and reared on back in Ireland.I had a shepherd and Lab mix as a kid. We also had poodles. My lab mix had a wonderful temperment but looking back he must have put up with an awful lot from me. I knew very little about training a dog. He ended up quite well trained and had quite a pampered life because he was my soul mate but it came more from massive repetition and the choke chain and putting his rump down and saying sit etc. etc. I have read Karen Pryor's reaching the animal mind and also Mary kays clicker training for dogs. I also love Kikopup on you tube. The one most valuable thing I have learnt is if a dog is not doing what you want him to do, what alternative are you offering the dog and what incentive are you giving the dog to do that alternative behaviour. Because, before I understood that, it was a battle of wills between me and the dog and we call ourselves the most evolved and intelligent of all the species yet we have a battle of wills shouting and gesticulating admonishing etc.etc. with an animal that can't talk or understand our language. But for now I am struggling with distractions both in and out. let me expand. Max is crate trained and he also has full use of our kitchen which is gated. He can leave the kitchen if the gate is down and enter into our livingroom where his crate is. training is done beginning in the kitchen where his attention is excellent. I then bring it into the living room where there are more distractions but still very controlled. I then add more distractions like asking my son to become a distraction etc. His sits, leash walking and leave it are out of 10 at a 8 on a scale in these conditions I would say. Now here is the problem. we don't have a back yard and everytime we have to go out to use the toilet(I have him trained to use a certain area about 30 feet away from our front door.) The stimuli of plants, leaves blowing, children playing other dogs being walked, neighbors coming and going are so great that he begins to strain severely on the leash and gasping. I do not yank or pull on his leash but rather become a "tree". His leave it works but it may become 4/10. His greetings have gone to a massive strain while I stand still and then he sits.As soon as i get to himagain he will strain again. The desire to meet the ne wperson is so great he cannot respond to anything else. I also want him to be socialized and he has been meeting lots of kids and adults since we got him a month ago.So his training has to become much more solid inside and then his distractions have to be added etc. i understand that, but I am looking for advice on whether I should stop saying any cue when he is outside and just become a tree so as to not weaken the cue/command until I feel it is proofed. It is so difficult reading steps where they ask you to add distractions one at a time but in reality that is very difficult to achieve when getting him out to the toilet or getting him to play etc. that it can get frustrating readign it when they give no pointers on what if you don't have ideal conditions to train a dog and who does? Please any advice how to deal with the dog going outside to massive distractions for toilet and play and not undermining controlled training that has been accomplished inside.
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Hi well done on going for positive training methods and doing so much already ;D I just know more experienced trainers will give you more specific suggestions but I wanted to say - don't expect perfection just yet he's still only 12 weeks and his memory isn't even developed fully yet! You've mentioned you "become a tree" to ignore his unwanted behaviour, what do you do when he does behave how you want? What sort of rewards are on offer?
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions [quote author=caroleb link=topic=592.msg2680#msg2680 date=1341421757] Hi well done on going for positive training methods and doing so much already ;D I just know more experienced trainers will give you more specific suggestions but I wanted to say - don't expect perfection just yet he's still only 12 weeks and his memory isn't even developed fully yet! You've mentioned you "become a tree" to ignore his unwanted behaviour, what do you do when he does behave how you want? What sort of rewards are on offer? [/quote] Hi thanks for the reply, No I understand perfection should not be there yet. I am still asking my son "did you wash your hands" when he comes out of the bathroom, and the reply often is" OOhh I forgot" and he is 7. so I understand how long fluency takes. Sometimes I am rewarding c/t a and a "good boy" after every three steps when he is walking beside me sometimes more like 7 or 8 if there is little distraction at that moment. My treats are always high value at the moments going outside. Roast chicken, grilled salmon, freeze dried liver Puperoni. Other times I am using a tug toy to distract but I want to use distance if I can and have him sit and watch from across the road and c/t his sitting and watching. It is when the distraction is so close, I am not sure if I a doing the right thing by standing and letting him know that straining will not get him to his goal or should I be trying to change his mind/thinking to concentrate on me. I think I should be trying to change his thinking by distraction and allow him to get success from a distance. It is just so difficult when the kids arrive at of nowhere or a neighbor walks out the door and the strain begins. Also his youthful exhuberance for investigation I feel guilty of stifling. I want him to get to know these stimuli now so he isn't too bothered later with them but that then undermines my "leave it" when I waqnt him to move on and he doesen't respond because he is too engrossed in the flower/sprinkler/tree/branch/drain etc.
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions I worked on the Look at Me . Using high value treats , I would get Sam to sit/stay when I saw an impending distraction and then Look at Me and treat . Sam also pulled on lead but I soon realised that it was only on the way to a play/training session off lead, he would walk home beautifully on a lose lead . If he began to pull , I would stop and literally walk backwards, because what Sam was saying to me was Quicker, faster . So , by walking backwards, he soon realised that trying to pull would get him nowhere fast , he still tends to be a little excitable but then he is a young dog . I applaud your determination in training Max but also bear in mind that he is only a baby and that whilst you dont want bad behaviour patterns to be set , many of the excitable puppy actions will fade naturally . Sam used to run after other dogs when let off lead , but now at a year old, he will go to meet in a calm way and then come back to me . Lots and lots of praise is needed when they get it right, using a high and happy voice . I know that many people believe that only positive reinforcement works and that a dog must not be told off for bad behaviour , but without ever once tapping Sam , or shouting at him , he knows by my stern tone when he has messed up ! My gundog trainer told me to be a Sargeant Major when issuing commands and then silly high pitched voice when he got it right , it worked for Sam , most of the time but he still has his moments !
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=592.msg2686#msg2686 date=1341428059] [/quote] many thanks, I have to use look at me more.. Yes he is a baby and I know it takes time, I am very aware of his young age that is not the concern really. My biggest concern is; am I weakening my cues so they become useless? So rather than holding him back should I let him go up and meet. Or should I totally distract him, leaving him to meet the strangers later in his life.(OR say nothing and leave him strain but ultimately not getting to his goal) Right now all he wants to do is greet them with all the affection he has in him. I want to let him but I also want him to realize that it should be on the persons terms not the dogs terms. The issue again is there is so many distractions in such a limited area that it becomes almost unmanageable to have him do a walk of any distance without him really straining towards someone or something. I am, looking really for advice on what do people here think is the best strategy for dealing with massive distractions when outside. The step by step process of getting the behaviour, adding distractions one at a time and then proofing etc I understand under ideal conditions. I just watched Pippa's video puppy recall. She is outside and when the puppy who naturally wants to stay with you comes racing towards you then use the cue rather than actually training her to come as a puppy. Then lots of and praise and treats. I will use this much more than trying to manufacture the recall.
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Okay this article from the site I found has helped greatly. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/?p=803
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Hi there, and welcome to the forum A couple of thoughts to add to what has been said. When you first start using cues, try and focus on pairing your 'cues' with an action that the puppy has already chosen. Like you saw in the recall video, but you can do this with other cues too. So you can say the word 'sit' when the puppy chooses to sit. And you can say the word 'heel' when the puppy chooses to stand next to you. You can then reward these behaviours. Even though you didn't trigger them yourself, you are teaching the puppy what each cue means. Kind of like learning a new language for him. Pulling on the lead can easily become a habit, and for this reason I very rarely put a small puppy on a lead for more than a few minutes, and accompany this with lots of treats and fussing. Save the lead for when you really need it for socialisation. Whenever you are in a safe place, have the puppy off the lead and keep him moving after you by constantly changing direction. We're going to do a video of introducing the lead as soon as it stops raining! Pippa
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Hi all Thanks again for the replies. I had lost use of my PC for a while so it's good to be back.
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions George's enormous distraction is other dogs closely followed by other people he can say hello too. However, we have yet to find a treat that is distracting enough to get his mind off the dog or person. I think its a combination of always using decent treats from the start which has kind of backfired. Early on we used a lot of hot dog, peperarmi and cheese, when practising loose lead walking other training. Now the only thing that he slows a slight interest in with other dogs around is fresh out of the fridge chicken, if its been out too long he not interested and its just normal to him. Any tips of how to tackle this? As seeing another dog especially on lead will result in him just standing there staring, i can pull him away and he carries on with me but if not he just wants to play with them? Is there an element of still being young (7months) and wanting to play with everyone and as he grows up this will fade? Obviously not going to rest on my laurels but would be interesting to know if thats the case..
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Jez have you tried the pouches of wet cat food? They make a good jackpot reward once you've got him past the distraction. If he's very dog-orientated I doubt there is much food wise that will work as a lure to get you there though...
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Is this recall? Or heelwork that you are teaching? It is important to be clear on what you are trying to achieve. Each skill must be taught in layers. And as you pass through each level, you must fade out the rewards to a minimum before moving on to the next level. It sounds as though George is not motivated and motivation is generated by incentives. Whether these are freedom to run around, games, or food rewards. Recall away from, or walk to heel past, a dog or person, is a fairly advanced skill. And it is particularly difficult for a friendly young dog. It is important to get each stage in training well established so that the dog is fluent and working for random and low value rewards, before moving on to the next stage. There is quite a lot of information about this in the ebook, which you might find helpful. There is also a lot of info in my Total Recall training programme. But, you need to work through each stage. You can't expect the dog to start learning to obey a recall or heel command under distraction until he is 100% fluent without distractions, and with minimal rewards. No bribes, no lures, just an occasional treat. You need to practice recalling or heeling past distractions at home, using friends. Obviously this needs to be arranged in advance with your knowledge. There is an article on the website this morning about setting up distractions before attempting to train the dog in public. And there is a lot of information on proofing in the training techniques section. Where most people fall down is they jump ahead too quickly. Get the basics absolutely right first, and don't use your new commands (recall, heel etc) in situations where you know the dog is unlikely to obey you. If you are training with food, then before you start any training session, the dog should be hungry - so at least six hours since his last meal, and you cannot start any new level of training until you have faded rewards on the previous level. Use a training lead to maintain control if necessary. You can use opportunities to play with other dogs as the reward if you want to, though it can be time consuming. A very simple basic start would be to insist that George look at your face before you let him off his lead to play. Once he can look at your face even though there is another dog nearby, you have made a start on getting him to understand that rewards come from you, that you control them, and that responding to your commands is the best way to get them. The key with all dog training is to plan ahead and be systematic. Don't let 'training situations' just happen to you. Plan them and control them. Write down what stage you are at, what things George can do flawlessly, and then start teaching something that is just a little bit harder. Use big rewards, then fade them. Don't move on again til he is flawless at this new task with the occasional simple reward. All this takes time and effort, but it is soooo worthwhile. Pippa
Re: Dealing with Enormous distractions Thanks guys, he is very dog oriented as i said no food seems to get his interest off them especially on lead. We try and practice things with people around, sometimes he is better than others. The point is we have to walk him on and off lead daily, so that results in him seeing people and other dogs being walked or off lead. When these situations arise we try and walk him past distracting him but nothing seems to have an effect. He actual lead walking is not too bad, walks nicely alongside with a click and treat every now and again. When he pulls forward we stop and after his sniff or whatever he seems to default to come back alongside of us. Person or dog, that goes right out of the window. Stop and look, i then have to drag him along to get him moving again...
