On another post , I mentioned that both dogs have been very itchy , this started quite recently . No change of food , bedding is washed regularly with non bio liquid , both treated for pesky little insects and so it was seeming to be something environmental . Where I walk in the woods is a really rough area, covered in thicket and also bracken and ferns , this is where Sam loves me to throw his dummy/ball , the harder it is to find it, the more he loves it and of course , Millie joins in too . Am now wondering if it is spores from the bracken and ferns causing the itching , I have read that bracken can be carconogenic too, so am now in total panic . They both seem well enough , Millie is the one scratching most but then, being close to the groud, this would again confirm that it is something that they are runnng through . So, now this area is out of bounds until we have a frost to kill of the fronds , always something to worry over :
Re: Bracken and Ferns There is also some sort of autumn mite that might be causing itching Kate, not sure what and no time to google right now, but have a look online, I remember my vet mentioning it.
Re: Bracken and Ferns I think bracken is thought to be carcinogenic if it is eaten? I looked into ferns when Charlie was a young pup and chewed all my ornamental fern fronds! I don't think you should be worried about that unless they have been eating it. Bracken is associated with various toxins though, but just running through it on a walk, and both dogs affected? Don't know. Can you see anything on them? Any rash or spots?
Re: Bracken and Ferns Just examined Millie as she is by far the worst of the two, used a microscope too, not a sign of anything at all . Have trimmed her fur under tummy as this is where she seems to be most itchy, she has got a couple of pinky/red patches where she has scratched or bitten herself , am sure its something they are running through, have given her a Piriton, Vets on Monday if it doesnt calm down . Sam isnt anywhere near as itchy today, both eating well and seem to be well , judging by their walk this morning both are still as energetic as ever
Re: Bracken and Ferns cant help you but hope you get to the bottom of it kate ......i am sure you will
Re: Bracken and Ferns Hi Kate Not sure I can be of much help but if you have a microscope you could use some Sellotape to get any dust off skin/fur and have a look under the microscope. Mites of what ever description should show up. Oh unless that's what you did when you said you'd used a microscope sorry brain not in gear. ??? Harry (cousins dog) has been very itchy recently but only down the back of his back legs. He nibbles and licks. He wakes pat up in the night doing it that's when it seems worse. I've looked but can't see anything. Another itchy mystery. ???
Re: Bracken and Ferns Isn't it odd? No sign of rash, spots or mites... If it were mites, wouldn't there be some evidence to see on the skin? I suppose unless the bites were too small to see. Charlie scratches his neck - the best explanation that we (me and various vets) have come up with is it's a habit formed by scratching at his collar (which he still hates and probably always will, although not as much as a harness, at least we can get it on him). And he does it now even when the collar is off.
Re: Bracken and Ferns Obi has a collar/neck scratching habit too. Does it when he's a bit confused about something. Obi also has some kind of springtime allergy that makes him itch and chew. He has two antihistamines (Zyrtec) every morning and fish oil capsules (helps the antihistamine work). The medication helps enormously. It's something about where we live - he is not itchy if we go interstate. Dogs react to pollen etc with itchy skin, unlike us who get respiratory symptoms.
Re: Bracken and Ferns Hi Kate First time back online for weeks and a question I can answer! The main carcinogen in bracken is the spores - which in late summer/early autumn lift with every breeze, they're easily spotted as they are the same rusty brown colour as dead fronds. Walking through the stuff you can sometimes see the clouds lifting, especially if it's been really still. The green fronds are toxic, possibly carcogenic, if ingested and can induce early labour/miscarriage. As if that little lot is not enough to put off potential browsers the margins of each little leaflet are lined with very fine little hairs and bigger ones on the main stem and rib of each frondlet. At this time of year the tall fronds are dying down and can release the little hairs which are highly irritating, especially on exposed skin or if they work their way through the fur. Once the stems are down, washed by rain they're fine and up here a few farmers cut the bracken to use as bedding. I'd guess that it's the little hairs that are causing the irritation, my lot get chucked in the river (well they hurl themselves!) after a bracken-y walk. I wash down with lots of clean, cold water and on any hot spots use either calendula or urtica cream, calendula if there are any scratches, urtica if it's only an irritation. I wouldn't worry over much but if it doesn't clear up then a trip to your friendly vet will, if nothing else, put your mind at rest. Best wishes Kerryn PS bracken (or pteridium aquilinum to give it its proper name) is one of the most successful plants on the planet growing on every continent except Antarctica, although spores have been found in ancient ice cores so even the poles are not safe!
Re: Bracken and Ferns kerryn , i have got to say i am well impressed with your advice, very well explained,....
Re: Bracken and Ferns There are some species of edible bracken. You can eat the very young, curled frond tips. They eat them in Canada (Lisa might be able to comment on that) and call them 'fiddleheads'. Many carcinogenic or toxic compounds in plants break down and become harmless when cooked and I think that's the case with fern fronds. I think you have to cook them. Anyway, I'm only going on what a Canadian friend of mine told me And the dogs aren't eating them anyway.... Probably just the pollen prompting an allergic reaction.
Re: Bracken and Ferns Many species of fern, including bracken, are edible at the fiddlehead stage (never eat once they start unfurling), as long as you cook them which breaks down the problematic chemicals in the plants, steamed they taste a little like asparagus. However, there are still question marks over the carcinogenic properties of bracken and in the UK, don't eat bracken from the moors as it will probably have been sprayed at some point with asulam - the only herbicide which can kill it -which persists in the rhizome and the new fiddle heads are smaller, weaker and full of it. Because of problems entering water supplies and affecting edible crops asulam has been banned across the EU since January 2012. In the UK there have been special licenses granted for its continued use in the fight against bracken on moorland whilst the parent company re registers the chemical and waits for new permits to be granted. If you fancy trying fiddle heads next spring stick to ostrich or shuttlecock varieties (matteuccia spp) from the garden! Kerryn
Re: Bracken and Ferns Wow, you know a lot about ferns! I would not know one fern from another. I'm fairly sure that I've had some kind of fern frond in Japanese food (was definitely cooked....and also kind of pickled).
Re: Bracken and Ferns Encyclopedic knowledge about ferns! I read a bit when Charlie took a liking to all the fiddleheads of my ornamental ferns in my garden (planted by the previous owner of the house, and they are large and magnificant. Well, unless a puppy has sheared off all the fiddleheads that is...). I read enough to convince myself that next year, every fern will be behind wire so the dog can't get at it. That will also mean, of course, that they get to grow and look good in my garden!
Re: Bracken and Ferns Thanks so much for this Kerryn , I am now convinced that this is the answer , so shall now avoid the bracken like the plague . I knew it must be something environmental for both of them to be affected and it makes sense that Millie is more badly affected as she is lower to the ground . Thank you very much indeed x
Re: Bracken and Ferns Wow,really interesting reading and really glad it's help you get to the bottom of the dogs scratching Kate x
Re: Bracken and Ferns Hi Kate You're very welcome, I'm glad my exhaustive knowledge of moorland ecosystems is of some practical use! ;D (life on the moors with the added 'advantage' of an Ecology degree, moorland speciality and final dissertation on the fructose content of sphagnum and the implications for climate change - no don't ask... ) Thanks for asking after the dynamic duo - they're wonderful! Five months old now and Dido is only a couple of inches off Hebe's height already. Dido is a little dog whilst Hester is still a puplet. There's a new blog post in the offing, half written so any day now : Kerryn x
Re: Bracken and Ferns So pleased that all is good with the pups Kerryn Thanks again for the info re bracken . I took them both to the woods yesterday and let them have a swim towards the end of the walk . Like wise today, its been torrential rain all day so the bracken is flattened and beginning to go brown , but again , I washed tums well with water and glad to say that the scratching is much diminished tonight, so much better and Millies redness has gone too so many many thanks x
Re: Bracken and Ferns Wow ,what another great example of how valuable the forum is,great to hear you've seen improvement Kate x
