Situation: Since Nelson was 7 weeks old, I've used 3 toots on the whistle as sign that dinner is available. I progressed on to using the same whistle for recall practice, first with kibble as a reward, and as he got older, he got cooked chicken or pork cubes. It's worked well and we have got to the point where he will recall away from food inside. Of course all of this training works inside perfectly, and most of the time it works great when we are outside on walks too. Nelson is now 8 months old, becoming a teenager and isn't as obedient as he was earlier. Also I've now had a few occasions where I've seen him sniffing/eating something from a distance and have tried, and failed, to recall him My open questions, for which answers are gratefully received: 1. Is my recall now poisoned after some failures? 2. Should I go back to basics, and start again with a new cue, following the steps in Total Recall? 3. If I do start again, is moving from 3 toots to 5 toots considered a "new cue"? 4. Or should I consider occasional recall failures "normal" and keep working with he same cue with which we have worked with for 6 months.
Failures are normal and don't automatically mean you need to change your cue, but you should also d your damnedest to avoid them, as they are all learning experiences, where he learns that he doesn't have to respond. I always say that a recall is something that should be trained a lot but rarely used. I try not to ever use mine unless I have to! However, I am training it constantly. I don't like to test it; if I think the dog won't recall, I don't use my whistle. I use either one of my other multitude of "come here for something nice" cues that don't matter if they are weakened. The whistle recall is for training or for real emergencies. I'd go play a lot of recall games such as ping-pong recall, pay into your behaviour bank account as much as you can and avoid making ay withdrawals. It's perfectly normal for your recall to become unreliable at this age. What you had before was a puppy recall. He's now transferring to adulthood, so you have to train for that. It's not as easy as having a puppy who wants to be with you just because you're great
Thanks for the reply. This was an emergency - I wanted to stop him eating something and he was about 40m away. He's since been a bit ill And is laying down looking very sorry for himself. (I tried and failed to hide this behind a thumbnail ) 20171113_160814_kopio by Snowy posted Nov 13, 2017 at 5:02 PM
Yeah, but you're not going to be able to recall him from eating something he considers to be food, so you're only going to weaken your recall if you try in that situation. You have to just go collect him.
Goodness @Snowy, just thought I'd check the Forum while I have a nice cup of tea and a tasty nibble, and what do I see before me? Hope he perks up now he has got that out of his system. While ago I posted the same question re changing cue for recall, and in the end decided to retain my 3 pips and worked through Total Recall with good effect, I think you've already had good advice from snowbunny. I'm having trouble with Cassie at the moment darting off to eat stuff I don't want her to, I don't use my whistle if I think she won't respond immediately. It's frustrating because her recall is good otherwise, this morning I took roast chicken with me and that worked wonders, I think I will do TR exercises again.
You're absolutely correct. Mrs Snowy and myself have just discussed the event and she's reminded me that Pippa says something similar in her book. But now I'm starting to question the whole Recall thing, particularly where it sits in my list of training priorities. I've put most of my efforts in to training the "stop and sit" whistle and the "recall" whistle. But now I'm questioning the usefulness of training the recall whistle, especially as I can't use it when I need to, because it might not work If I need a recall that only works when there are no other distractions, I could simply rattle his treat bag and he's by my side in a flash. Training effort for that is practically zero, so I could potentially slot Total Recall in to a box in the attic and use the time to train more in other areas. If I sound a little despondent, it's because I am
It's difficult I agree in this situation. But lots of the exercises in the TR book involves working with distractions. I know its difficult when it's food (to them!) on the ground, but at least with that they are not actually running away and can be taken away. I think it would be worth going through the book again, really sharpen up his association with the whistle and super high value reward. Try ping pong recall, it's great and they love it! Just because he won't leave a pile of whatever he's found doesn't mean he won't respond at other times Don't be despondent, tomorrow's another day! You're not alone
Well, no, the point is you train toward that. Right now, you can't recall from something he sees as food. It doesn't mean it can't be done, it's just a process that you can't skip to the end of. At first, there was no way I could have stopped or recalled Shadow away from chasing a marmot or a rabbit, but now it's a piece of cake. I don't like to do it, because every time I do it means the next time it's less likely to work, so I train him not to chase in the first place. However, if he does chase, I know I can bring him back. Just because I rarely use it "in anger", it doesn't mean it's not worth training. It's potentially life-saving, you just have to keep plodding on, paying into that behaviour bank account Try not to be disheartened, keep going with recall games in your daily routine because they're fun, and over time you'll end up with something that is fantastically strong and can be used in situations you never dreamed it would work in.
Don't give up on training a good recall, as Fiona said, it could be life saving. A recall game that works a treat with Hattie is just to stand still, no verbal, visual or whistle cues, that is a clear signal to her to get back to me as quick as she can to a great treat I also do hand touch games too. I do think working through Total Recall is a good way to proceed. I don't think our rescue boy Charlie would have a recall if we hadn't worked through the exercises. We don't use our whistle recall hardly at all, I save it for when I really need it, I use my stop whistle and the other things I have mentioned. Keep going it may seem tough now but it really will pay dividends in the future x
Yes, absolutely, I can vouch for that, given to me by @charlie when I had a similar thread going. Works well.
Oh God, back from work, and treated myself to a scone and a cup of tea and....blurgh!! I think on balance you are doing all the right things, I do like the way you have paired up the recall whistle with food inside, great idea! 7 months is such a challenging time, it really is. I was almost in despair with my adolescent boy, and don't talk to me about deer and rabbits with my youngest right now! You will get through it. I think generally upping the ante on your relationship helps, by making yourself more interesting and working on games that help keep your pup really close. I went back to basics and used high rewards for "checking in". I dropped the criteria in the sense of the environment, so the distractions were less, thus making it easier working towards more unconscious behaviours, such as unprompted checkins. So with Benson, it was less "doggy" areas, and with Bramble, it was less wildlife. Some examples of the games I played, chase the tuggy...hand touch, hiding treats in hands, the lost game (high value treats scattered on the ground and using a cue to "find them") This is the game I use in an emergency. Don't give up on TR right now, but this is the time to really pick your battles
I hope you don’t mind me asking a question on your thread @Snowy but snowbunny, how exactly did you go about training your recall away from chasing small furries? Given that they are not an easily controlled distraction like food or a toy? Did you train a recall away from chasing toys and once it was super strong it just generalised to any chasing behaviour? Thanks
I can recall Duggan off wild animal as well. We have at least 6 species of wildlife through our property on a near daily basis. He is constantly exposed to their scent and in our daily routine (before the surgery) he was allowed to run free and smell away. It never went anywhere for him so tracking was the reward. Playing hide and seek with me for yummy treats became more rewarding for him so when we did come across something I would recall him quite reliably. Since day one he was off lead and followed us everywhere. We played hide and seek three times a day and never walked the property the same way and always reversed direction when he tried to go ahead so he was always chasing us, not the other way around, we never chased him. There was a slight breakdown around 8-10 months but we then whistle trained using sardines and he was fed them very slowly to prolong the awesome moment of savouring the sardines. I think one of the most important aspects of having a reliable recall is creating a dog/owner relationship that provides him with a sense of wanting to return to you without you ever getting angry when they don’t. It’s a process and one that takes years. Just spending time with you dog and training little things when you are out goes a long way. Standing there watching them do whatever they want until you decide you want to call them back just doesn’t work effectively. Trying to recall a dog that’s been in a crate all day or home alone can also be challenging. Another aspect I found was to let your dog get its way sometimes. Do what it wants and once they are satisfied they will satisfy you. The whistle is now an emergency recall because his regular is pretty good. He actually responds better to hand signals. Don’t get frustrated and don’t give up on TR. it works in the long run. It was a priority for me so we work long and hard on it all the time, still at 18 months.
@Johnny Walker 's post mirrors my own experience with Cassie -- the changing direction, hide and seek games, hand touch in short all the things people have posted all come together in time and really give a feeling of sharing that time. Like Duggan, Cassie has a good recall from wildlife (so far anyway) and I was only thinking yesterday if it's because it's been part of her daily life since 8 weeks old. Also I agree, just sometimes, when it's safe, I just let her do what she wants -- the thing I notice is , she very soon returns to me without calling. But like you @Snowy, I'm currently facing the fact that a pile of poo or whatever he had regurgitated yesterday )) can be more interesting than me at that point in time, it is frustrating, I know. She seems ravenous in general at the moment, maybe due to a bit of winter chill in the air , well for us anyway, I don't know. Anyway, looks like I need to stock up on sardines!!
Nope. Well, yes and nope. I've done lots of steadiness around thrown balls etc, recall away from J holding a ball (the ball is the most exciting thing in the world to him, barring wildlife). Lots of Premack stuff - if he comes away from J who is holding a ball, he gets to chase the ball etc. Then I started running with him in the early morning. Rabbit central. The first time, I was unprepared but, if memory serves, I squawked loudly at him as he ran after it, he paused fleetingly, I shouted YES and threw the ball in the other direction. As we continued, we had more opportunities for me to practice my squawking skills and he came to associate the bunny appearing with a ball being thrown in the other direction. Not the most controlled exposure to wildlife, but it worked for us
Ah ok thank you! That sounds a good way of doing it. Unfortunately the Pig wouldn’t care one jot about a ball when there are squeaky fur-creatures around. But I am doing lots of work trying to build up her ball and dummy obsessions, so maybe one day
Yes, that's part of the puzzle, building up the desire for the object and training using Premack to get the dog to turn away from something amazing in order to get it, whatever that amazing thing might be. Have you tried her with a rabbit ball? http://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/678 Given the choice of bouncing rabbit or ball, of course Shadow would choose the rabbit. But the point of the training is to get a trained response so there is no weighing up. If the dog is thinking "this or that?", then you're bribing, and bribes fail at some point. But, from the training I had done with balls, I got enough of a hesitation that I could mark and he instinctively turned back to me for a reward, at which point, Bugs was gone. He still got a great reward, playing with his ball, but it wasn't a choice per se between rabbit or ball. No way would the ball have won
You could also look at using a bolting rabbit, maybe. http://www.sportingsaint.co.uk/product/816 I attached a rabbit dummy to a remote controlled car, but they weren't interested in the slightest
