Not Lab Owners, Yet...

Boxers too...

Here is the AVMA's position on cropping and docking - that page has some useful links to information that supports their position

And here is the AKC's position statement in response to the AVMA's position. which sadly does not contain links to any information or evidence to support their position.

But then given the even more harmful and completely unsupportable breed standards applied to many pedigree breeds, that doesn't really come as a surprise

Once argument for ear cropping of course is that prick eared dogs in general have better ear health than drop eared dogs. But on that basis it makes no sense to have a policy of cropping which does not apply to all drop-eared dogs, or at least to those most at risk from ear infections such as Cockers and Poodles.

 

I think the ear health argument could probably proved inaccurate. Also cutting tissue could also provide infection easy access to vulnerable young dogs tissue.

 

I believe the idea of cropping and docking for Dobermans is because they were bred as protection dogs. You cannot grab onto a dog with out a tail or floppy ears and pull them off of you if they are attacking you. I have owned two dobermans with floppy ears but the tails are almost always done. Rubie comes from a line of conformation champions and we did not have the option of not doing her ears/tail. I actually am quite fond of the look, having owned other dobermans without their ears done.

I've also had extensive training on how to use a prong collar and en e-collar properly to the point that Rubie get's excited when she seems them because it means we're doing something fun/training/exploring, etc. I can assure you that if they harmed her in any way, she would not let me put them on her.

If these are going to be problems and illicit negative comments each time I post a photo, with or without lab, I'll keep moving. I realize there are folks from all over the world here but Rubie is a happy, healthy, well trained and well adjusted dog. There are stigmas, at least in the US, that Dobermanns have and labs don't that we have to overcome so it's no accident that she is usually the most well behaved dog in any situation we're in. It also means she has less room for error because she will be immediately judged.

edit: she only get's the e-collar when she is off leash outside. It is not used inside, or for agility/trick/anything training. Purely to keep her recall honest. Same with the prong. It is only on when she is attached to a leash we are holding.

 

I'm lost for words. I wonder if you expect to be using your e-collar, and/or prong collar, on your Labrador as well, when you get one? Purely to keep his recall honest, of course...

 

Given that we are a positive training forum, and e-collars and prong collars are anathema to us, if you don't feel the same in this regard perhaps moving along would be a good move.

 

Hi again,

We're a forum that promotes the use of positive reinforcement training and does not accept that prong collars and e-collars are either necessary or acceptable. They are illegal in many countries for good reason. Here is the section of our rules that mentions them:

"This forum supports and promotes positive reinforcement training. Members may not advise others to use painful punishments on their dogs, nor promote the use of punishment in dog training by posting anecdotes which endorse the use of such punishment."

"Punishment" is used in the scientific sense, which is explained in more detail here: https://www.thelabradorsite.com/punishment-in-dog-training/

I do hope that you stay on the forum to read all the advice that shows you how it's possible to train without using harsh methods of any type; I'm sure that anyone who understood there was a way that meant shock collars and prong collars weren't necessary would leap at the chance to investigate these methods. For me, I have a high prey-drive boy who has a pretty rock-solid recall and stop, even away from wildlife, trained entirely positively. Why wouldn't you want that?

 

I am familiar with positive reinforcement training and we do use it; a lot. I am open to all sorts of training methods. No one asked me if we only use the tonal or vibrating feature of the e-collar. Or in what instances we use the prong. And assumed we had an option for cropping/docking. Even a majority of Dobermans in rescues in the States have been cropped/docked.

We earned our AKC Novice Trick Title this weekend and are only two tricks away each from Intermediate and Advanced Titles. Using only positive reinforcement methods.

 

No, no-one asked you, but the science is clear; if they work, then it is through punishment. If they are not punishing, they do not work. This isn't opinion, it's behavioural science at its most basic. No-one is saying you're abusing your dog, but our stance on the use of these tools is non-negotiable. They are unnecessary and, when there are force-free ways of achieving the same result, then there is no real reason/excuse to use them. I repeat as above, why wouldn't you choose to use non-aversive methods if you understand they are available?

As above, I really hope you are open to working through different methods with your new dog. I'd like you to hang around and get support in how to achieve these results. It's brilliant to be able to call your dog and have them come, or have a dog who trots on a loose leash by your side, without having to rely on an aversive tool for it. I'm here to happily answer any questions you may have. If you're not interested, though, then I will sadly recommend that you move on and find another forum, because this won't be a place that welcomes pictures or stories about the use of these tools.

 

I have not seen any illicit comments. Don't forget all members can use the report button if they think there has been a breach of our (fairly strict by internet forum standards) rules

A reported image was what alerted us to this topic. And the mods team are currently considering whether or not to allow members to post images of dogs that have been surgically altered for cosmetic reasons, on the forum.

We’ll let you know the outcome of that discussion when we have reached a decision. We don't make these decisions lightly or without considerable debate, so you may have to wait a few days.

In the meantime, all members no matter what their training background, are welcome to stay here, chat to other members, and if that interests them, learn how to train their dog without force.

But you'll need to leave your 'e-collar hat' at the door, as posts recommending punitive training measures are likely to be significantly edited or removed without warning.

Those who come from a traditional dog training background need not feel judged. I trained dogs (working gundogs) with traditional methods for around 30 years before changing my approach. It's never too late to learn.

 

While I totally understand the reasoning behind this and respect whatever decision the mods come to, could I just put in my two cents and say that an outright ban on such images would also mean not allowing images of dogs who may have been altered prior to coming to their current/forever families? Such as Brogan, in my avatar, whose tail was docked at one day old, long before I adopted him from Rottweiler rescue.

Not that this is an issue often faced by Labrador owners, but it comes up quite often for anyone with a poodle or poodle mix, any of the bully breeds, even chihuahua mixes. Again, not a lot of those dogs on the Forum so likely to affect nearly no one here, but just to say that there are all sorts of reasons people have cosmetically altered dogs that may not have been to do with their own choice in the matter. As I used to tell people about Brogan's tail, it's really hard to find a robotic replacement that will work.

Putting aside the e-collar argument for a moment, I really feel the need to second this statement and say that the overwhelming weight of public opinion when you have certain breeds as canine family members can't really be understood by someone who has never had one of those breeds. Lab people often ask me about my very difficult decision to no longer have a Rottweiler and nearly universally look at me with utter disbelief when I say that Brogan and I had been physically and verbally attacked on the street due to his breed. And that was with Brogan wearing his assistance dog cape, harness and goofy bandana.

You DO feel like your dog has to be perfection, first and foremost to keep him safe because if anything happens, even if it is not your dog's fault...it will be seen as your dog's fault and it will be your dog at risk. The idea that your dog's life could be at risk simply because of the way he looks is pretty alien to people who may have only had PR-friendly breeds such as Labs or GRs.

With this in mind, there are plenty of reputable trainers in the US who will tell you that for a large "bad rap" type of dog (Dobie, Rottie, bully breeds, GSD) you must use prongs, shocks, headcollars, dominance training, etc. to be a responsible owner of these breeds. Frankly, it is a hard attitude to avoid. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "Just buy a prong and file down the points to make them sharper - that will fix the pulling."

However, having said that, I'm very grateful to the Forum for helping me change my thinking on training and introduce me to 100% positive techniques. Not that I would call what I did before as punishment (I used a headcollar but not a prong or e-collar), but I did try to follow trainers and advice that I've learned here is seen as outmoded (yes, I'm talking about our "he who must not be named").

I think if @moose.and.rubie sticks around, she'll have a chance to get to know the knowledgeable people here and maybe some new ways to apply the 100% positive approach that she'd not previously considered. As I face (hopefully soon) the prospect of new puppy training, I know I'd also be interested in seeing even more discussion of how to take more traditional training techniques and go 100% positive with them.

 

Don't worry, this is part of the discussion

As for the second point, if you're concerned about the stigma of these dogs being aggressive, why, then, would you purposefully cosmetically alter a dog to make it look more aggressive, and to inhibit its natural body language so that it may actually end up being picked on, leading to aggression on its part. Nope, I can't get on board with this. It needs to change.

 

As someone who grew up in an era where positive methods were never heard of , I am so pleased that they are now accepted as being the very best way to train any breed of dog . I realise that I am not at my best right now , but I truly cannot , and never will , accept that any type of e collar/prong collar is the way to go , I find the concept abhorrent . When I was training dear Sam , I wanted him to do my bidding because he wanted to please me , and not because he was afraid of me . As for purposefully changing a dogs appearance ? Less said the better x

 

I totally agree for precisely these reasons. I really did wish I could have given Brogan a tail transplant.

To answer you as a completely non-professional type but as someone who has spent a good part of my life with "bad rep" dogs, here's my take on why people do it:

(1) For breed conformation and showing. For a very long time, not docked or cut meant losing in the show ring. It may even be part of the purchase contract for a show dog that the ears must be cropped. I don't know about Dobies, but for Rotties, the tide is turning (or by and large has already turned) because people who show follow the German standard so closely. As docking in Germany is illegal, show lines in the US aren't being docked either.

(2) "But that's what they look like." That's why Brogan was docked BY HIS RESCUE GROUP. Argh! But they honestly thought the litter would not get adopted if their tails weren't docked. At the time (15 years ago), docked = purebred, natural = "they must be mixes".

(3) Because people DO want them to look aggressive and menacing. Sadly, there is a chunk (albeit small) of the population who choose these breeds precisely because they do look tough and have a bad rap. So they dock and crop and put stud collars on them. And it a lot of these dogs then end up in rescue pre-docked and pre-cropped.

 

I am so naive that it was only recently I discovered that people actually crop dogs ears!

My friend has recently gotten a Great Dane and I asked her if she was getting a floppy eared one or a pointy eared one. She looked at me like I literally didn't realise that they were the same dog!

I think it would be a shame in the OP didn't hang around though. It is a really helpful lovely community here and we are dog mad (as you can probably tell). Rubie is a gorgeous girl - my Stanley has a good friend that's a Doberman called Olive. She's lovely. And we'd love to hear about your Labrador and the differences you discoverer training a Lab.

 

This goes for me as well, I'm so pleased I found this forum and the enlightenment of +R training, like @snowbunny I agree than once you know what can be done with your dog why oh why would you use any other method. I had to look at and revamp my previous ideas of dog training, and I'm so very pleased I did. +R is so joyful.
I don't understand the concept of surgically altering the look of a dog, or any animal, to suit the eyes of others, I never have and I never will, but fully accept that those who find themselves in need of a new home shouldn't be denied a happy fulfilled life.
I too think it would be sad if the OP didn't stay around, to learn what we all have, so @moose.and.rubie, I really hope you do come on here to share your Lab experience.

 

I have found such joy in training Charlie positively and as a previous absconding rescue Lab x Pointer he has tested me a 100 times, had me in tears but now I know it is totally worth it when I see all the wonderful things he has learned, steadiness, impulse control, whistle trained, retrieving a dummy to hand (all for fun for us). Clicker training funny things like fetch the post, my keys, helping me take the washing out of the machine, teeth cleaning, nail clipping, ear cleaning, cleaning dressing any paw wounds etc. plus lots of other things I never, ever thought in a million years he would achieve. But mostly I have learned so much about myself, my understanding, (slow as that might be ) and never to give up on him. The sheer pleasure of seeing my dogs especially Charlie getting excited to see the clicker or dummy come out of the bag, looking at me for direction which he never did for a very, very long time. There are no shortcuts, it takes sheer commitment to achieve results but only by being loving and gentle with our dogs. Charlie does these things because he and I are having fun and Charlie has and still does do everything at 100 miles an hour . He has repaid me a million times over with the trust and bond we share.
I love him xx

 

... And you of all people might have resorted to a shock collar, in your desperate efforts with Charlie, but you never gave up working with him, using positive methods, and look where it has got you today!!

 

For me for many reasons it's the idea that seeing the images it some how becomes normal and acceptable. Someone will see them and want a dog like that regardless of the suffering involved. The fashion for French bulldogs pugs and roach backed German shepherds show how easily the dog becomes an extension of ego and suffer for our lack of compassion and empathy. I would not buy a dog who had been mutilated in this way as it just encourages more to be disfigured but I would and have taken on a rescue dog who was already missing bits. I think you can tell a lot by a person by how the treat creatures in their power. If I was more evolved I would try to encourage talk or show a better way, but sadly I feel that you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Often people dont want to change.
I knew some who showed dogs and she travelled to another country as a young women to stay for a few months to train in a doberman show kennel. She didn't stay long though and came home quickly she helped with the pups and she saw how they cut taped and splinted their ears. She didn't talk about it much but she said she couldn't take it she said it was just wrong. I could do a choose life rant but I won't I just wish people would stop hurting animals whether its through ignorance arrogance or meaness. Just stop

 

I haven't said as much, but I have also witnessed first hand what cropping a Doberman puppy's ears entails, and I can tell you it is not pretty. I also looked after a Doberman for several years whenever his owner was away - he had floppy ears, though a docked tail - and was a genuinely friendly dog. At the time, people were still mostly used to seeing Doberman dogs with cropped ears, and I got lots of comments about how friendly he looked - and acted! The ears are very important means of communication for dogs - cropping them (and indeed docking tails) deprives them of a large part of their ability to communicate via body language, and can speedily end in misunderstandings and aggressive behavior.

I agree with the above - I would never buy a dog that had been mutilated by having its ears cropped, though I would take a rescue that already had been harmed in this way. Think of all those poor pit bulls with their ears cut off... It makes me angry and sick to the stomach that humans do this kind of thing to their pets. I even knew one woman who lived in Germany, but bought and imported a mini schnauzer from the USA, because they would cut the dog's vocal chords there. She didn't want a dog that would bark, don't you know...

 

Just makes me weep , and despair for humanity , that we want to fashion dogs to look different to how they should be . What on earth gives us the right to do this to dogs , to mutilate and alter , would we do it to our children because we didn't like the way they looked ? Of course we wouldn't , we would love them as they are , why then can we do this , and retain a conscience ? Altering for necessary health reasons , fine , but for any other reason is shameless and we cannot justify animal cruelty, surely ?