for more information on this topicThe Forum RecommendsThe Following Articles: The Use of Punishment In Dog Training and The Use Of Reinforcement In Dog Training The past week or so, if I tell Max "no" to anything, he turns into a snapping crocodile, jumping and darting around snapping at me, i totally ignore him now, where as before i was trying to calm him down by trying to stroke him when he first started doing this, but if he did manage to get me with a snap it was really very gentle, but niw i ignore and he calms down and lays down and turns I to a nice calm pup. Max Is now 5 1/2 months old and im hoping its just a stage he is going through. Doesnt do it to anyone else only me. Should I carry on ignoring this behaviour and he will ventually get the message that someties he can' do what he chooses to-do, like jumping on my lap when i i have hot drink or tablet !
Saying “no” is a bit meaningless to a dog, as it has no clear definition. So he may be frustrated. It’s far more meaningful to tell him what you do want him to do. So train conflicting behaviours. Don’t want him jumping on the work surfaces? Train him to sit or to go to his bed. You get the idea. Just a note on ignoring - this will only work to extinguish a behaviour if the thing he is looking for is your attention. If his behaviour is being rewarded in another manner, ignoring it won’t do anything to diminish it.
Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh-Uh- might be your first step. If he continues the behavior, then a very short 2 minute time out away from you. If he were younger he could have it in a large cardboard box, but at his age it would have to be on a leash tied to something substantial, like a door. Treat him for what you want him to do. "No" often turns into a punishment, especially when yelled. Punishment doesn’t tell him what you want him to do. There are lots of great books for this.
Max is not making the connection between the behavior you want to correct and the "no". That's obvious I suppose. You want an obedient pet who conforms to your world so finding what works can be tough. Whatever you choose be consistent and stick to it.
Gosh, but I really dislike the word “obedient”. Would you use it with your wife/husband/partner? A dog is a partner, too, and it’s up to you to teach him how to fit into your life, for sure, but not through mindless compliance. Teach him to make good decisions. That’s not obedience, that’s life skills. Sorry, I heartily disagree with this. If the puppy isn’t understanding “no”, why would he understand “uh-uh”? I repeat my previous; don’t tell him what not to do, because that’s hugely difficult for him to understand. Teach him what to do. And tying him to a door?! Firstly, that’s likely to make him very frustrated which will exacerbate any biting behaviour, not to mention it’s just mean if he’s not been trained to be tethered in a gradual manner. If he’s over-tired, some enforced rest in a crate with a Kong to chew will give him time to relax and fall asleep. Time-outs as a punishment are a bad idea. The link Mags provided has very helpful advice.
I’m sorry... Its hard to tell whether people are looking for punishment as a way to stop a behavior or if they want classical and /or operant conditioning. I avoid the use of the word NO since its very very difficult for a human being to use it in a totally unemotional way. And so, if one uses the word “no” its very likely it will be in an angry way and thus using anger is a way to mete out punishment. Using “uh-uh” is a way to suddenly interrupt a behavior. Using a sudden “ow!” is the same. You only want to interrupt the behavior. Most times “no” means nothing to the dog except that you are angry, but the owner thinks it does. What they really want is “Leave It” or “sit” or "lie down”, not “NO!". UH_UH-uh is a sudden interruption phrase that has very little anger attached to it when used. Time outs are used successfully in behavior management of children, and they work just as well for a dog that is out of control. A very short time out is not a punishment; its actually called a negative reinforcement---2 minutes max, put there with no emotion, and perhaps attached something like a neutral comment of “That’s enough”. For a small puppy I would use a cardboard box, but a 6 month old lab is a big dog and a negative reinforcer for biting is a removal from you for a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF NO MORE THAN 2 MINUTES. Tying to the door will undoubtedly make the dog A LITTLE frustrated. A little frustration is good since it causes the dog to realize that what they did was inappropriate and the natural consequence of that is less contact with you. It only becomes punishment if you yell, act mad, or leave him there for a long time. However, I was very clear to state, that a maximum of 2 minutes(120 seconds) should be used(after the two minutes you bring them back to for floor next to you where you can tell them to sit or lie down and get a treat). More time than 2 minutes and once again it would be a punisher. Punishment can only be used for stopping a behavior that is dangerous to the dog or dangerous to humans. But following that, the appropriate behavior(that you really want) should be taught.
Max does not know what it' is to be shouted at in anger, I think he would pee himself in shock ! We r just ignoring the behaviour, and when he stops the snapping and sits and looks at us as if to say, "well" we get one of his toys and play with him. I must admit I do think he does it for attention as it' normally of an evening when everyone is sat after a day of work and school,or if he thinks it' meal time, after all he is a lab . He is getting better, but like everything it takes a while to break a bad habit. He is crashed out on the settle with me at the moment, our normal spot every evening Oh and he does not like the neighbours outside Xmas lights, barking at them so much he even stopped eating his Dinner. We will investigate them tomorrow night on our walk.
Actually, no. A time-out is a negative punishment; you are removing freedom (removal makes it negative) and that is likely to diminish the behaviour in future (punishment). Negative reinforcements are things like stopping an ear pinch when a dog holds a dummy; removal of the pain (negative) is likely to make the behaviour of holding the dummy more likely in future (reinforcement). Here’s the thing ... if what you do makes a behaviour less likely to happen in the future, it is a punisher by very definition. You may not like to think it is, but that’s indisputable fact. Here, we advocate training through positive reinforcement - if you have to resort to punishers, however mild you may consider them (and let me tell you, my youngest would have found being tied to a door for even ten seconds highly punishing and distressing as a puppy) then you’ve missed an opportunity. Teach a dog to do something you like that is mutually exclusive to the things you don’t. Proactive vs reactive.
I can never imagine tying my dogs to anything to get them frustrated. I often have to hitch my dogs to a post and they wait patiently calmly as they have been taught. I taught them slowly and carefully They know its normal and ok so letting them get frustrated would be counter productive. I don't think upsetting my dogs is the way to go to achieve anything.
Here's another explanation of what Negative Reinforcement means - a lot of people get this one confused I just want to underline what Snowbunny has said here as it's quite important. A punishment is not defined by how long it lasts, how much it hurts or what tools were used to apply it. A punishment is simply something that diminishes behaviour that it's associated with. By definition, punishment does change behaviour. But because there are serious downsides to using punishment, modern dog trainers encourage people to teach dogs with positive reinforcement. I've put some links at the top of this thread with more information. Hope that helps.
I think the use of negative reinforcement is a bit clearer if we think of common applications in horse riding. The rider applies pressure with the legs, which the horse doesn't like. When he moves forwards, that pressure is released. Similarly with some bits; the rider pulls on the rein(s), which causes the horse discomfort. The horse stops (if both reins were pulled) or turns (if a single rein was pulled) and the pressure on the bit is released.
