Best no pull harness

Discussion in 'Labrador Puppies' started by Vicci, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    I absolutely did not say that. If you read what I wrote properly - even in the bit you quoted - you'll see I said rewards not treats. You made it clear that your dog finds praise rewarding. That's great! You also play games with him - also great! These are rewards, motivators, reinforcers, whatever you want to call them. And if your dog is truly willing to change his behaviour (which you've talked about yourself in your post) for nothing more than a kind word and a smile, then that's brilliant.

    You've trained a cue for "come into the house" and his reward is playing a game. A perfect example of operant conditioning using positive reinforcement. This is precisely what I'm advocating. Find a reinforcer that works for your dog in whatever scenario you're in and use it. I'm guessing he wouldn't find a kind word enough of a motivator in this case, which is why you've devised this use of the game. You could probably transition to that in time, once a strong enough reinforcement history of playing with his blanket has been put in place, but why should you, if you both enjoy the game?

    Your example above is exactly what I meant. When you need your dog to do something, finding a way to get him to do it in a way he finds rewarding. We're singing from the same song sheet.

    But, as I said, my concern isn't about you and your dog. My concern is that when you are dismissive of using treats on this forum then you are potentially influencing other people whose dogs simply aren't reinforced by those kind words and patience. People who don't have your time or patience. Maybe they also don't have the closeness of bond you do with Murphy. For those people and dogs, if they hear "dogs will work for praise alone" or "dogs just want to please us", when their dog doesn't respond in the same way as yours or they simply expect results at a faster rate, they are more likely to become frustrated with the dog when he pulls on the lead, when he barks at strangers, when he counter-surfs, when he doesn't come when called. And that is why I will continue to speak up when you are dismissive of treats. Because I think, as fine as it may be for your dog in your relationship and with the time you can commit to just muddling along until things fall into place, that it is also true of so few dog-human partnerships that people need to know they are not failing if they are using treats. Quite the contrary. That using treats is a brilliant way of communicating to a dog that they're on the right track, and quickly. For many dogs, including mine, games can be a stronger reinforcer - they form the majority of our reinforcement these days - but when introducing new stuff, bring on the food! Treats, treats, treats, treats, treats!

    An example of my own; since being back in Andorra for the last couple of weeks, Shadow has been alert barking when he hears noises outside our apartment. I was unprepared at first, so I would use a soothing voice to say "it's OK, it's just <whatever>". He might stop, he might not, depending on how loud or persistent the noise was. I'm sure, given time, he would stop with this as he'd simply become desensitised to it. That's not good enough for me, though - I'm all about being proactive, and it's not fair for my neighbours to hear a barking dog, not to mention I hate the noise myself in an enclosed space. So I have started keeping a pot of kibble by me wherever I am. As soon as there's a noise, I say "yes!" before he can bark and I throw him a piece. In the space of a day, he stopped barking at the more normal noises and I don't have to worry about them any more. After a couple of days of doing this, he was happy to hear our neighbour coming in and out, often scuffing on our own door as he does. A couple of days more, he only now barks when startled or when someone knocks on our door. Again, I'm working on that - again with treats. I make random knocks on furniture and doors throughout the day and throw him a treat. The change is marked in a very short space of time. Yes, he may get there in time with me simply telling him it's OK, but by using food I have massively accelerated this process, by both operant conditioning (marking him for quiet and giving him a reinforcer) but also by classical counterconditioning (the noise now predicts food so is no longer scary). In this case, food is by far the best reinforcer, because I want to promote calmness; if I reinforced him with a game, it would create an association of excitement with the noise, which is obviously not what I want. As I use simple kibble for this, it comes out of his daily allowance and means he's not getting any additional junk or extra calories. He just gets his meals spread throughout the day, being used to promote calmness at each and every opportunity.

    By the way, the picture you paint above of your lifestyle is so close to ours in Spain as to barely be able to separate. My dogs are practically never alone as I work from home and my husband is working on our property. The door is always open; we have a fenced acre around our house, the dogs can come and go as they choose (although tend to stay with me inside for the most part), but we'll go out and play in the garden or wander around our seven hectares; they will join my husband as he works on the land; they are incredibly rarely on lead, so we have the time to work on loose-leash walking without actually needing to use a leash for months... it's idyllic.
     
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  2. T Reischl

    T Reischl Registered Users

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    I still do not see where I was being "dismissive" about using treats. I don't know how many times I have to repeat what I wrote in my very first post before it is understood so I am not going to bother to repeat it again.
     
  3. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    That's very dismissive of you in itself. We do understand you and we have listened politely on many occasions. I do think Snowbunny is correct you do have to be careful and be aware that you could influence someone it a way that makes things more difficult for them. When someone gets a new pup or dog it can be very hard for them and undermining their confidence is easy to do with poorly though out ideas. Perhaps thinking about how someone who's new to all this feels would help you. Any implied criticism whether ment or not can be damaging for many owners who are having a hard time.
     
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