Heading in tomorrow for a PennHip Xray. Our boy is 4 months old and been to the vet 3 times for shots and each time she tested his hips and notices some laxity. He seems fine though overall without any symptoms. Does bunny hop when running really fast but not when jogging or walking. He does sit funny sometimes and more often indoors. Outdoors, he sits perfect for some reason. We are in the northeast with snow and ice so possible why. We have been careful with playing with them, keeping him off slippery surfaces, managing his weight, using a quality large breed puppy food, and avoiding stairs. Although, he is getting too heavy to carry now though at 36 pounds (for my wife). He is also high energy and is very food motivated so he has trained well. Potty training was only a couple of days. Knows his name, come, stay, heel, sit, paw, lye-down, and rollover. Hearing is amazing and while outside, will focus on birds and planes that even I have a hard time seeing. We desire to do whatever is best for him but based on all my research, there seems to be 2 sides of the street regarding the JPS surgery, and PennHip seems to be for either scoring for breeding or the JPS surgery. It also seems like if they offer both at the same clinic / hospital that they may be more likely to pair them up? $600 for the xray and $2500 for the JPS surgery (if he needs it). We are planning to get the xray but not do the surgery same day (if suggested). However, I do know that the surgery is a limited window of doing it at 4-5 months old. Some vets I spoke with did not want to say anything negative about it but mentioned based on their experience that don't recommend it much. I then ask why and that is when they got a little tight lipped. One even claimed to go to med school with the person that invented it and left it as "he heard that results can be questionable". Another (well established) facility that I called that was listed on the PennHip site as a registered vet stated they no longer perform this type of xray. Of course they did not provide a reason and just restated to me that they don't do that at their facility anymore. This was a red flag to me. We have seen several threads from folks regarding JPS working for their furry friends but some have either been a near completely lame dog at 3-4 mo old with noticeable signs or the possible (and hopefully not) "successful" surgery that may have been unnecessary. I often remind myself of my mouthful of filings from an unethical dentist that drove a red Ferrari. I don't want to look back and feel like I'm being cheap and unhelpful to him. However, I don't want to put my pup through anything with a question mark for success. Both the xray and surgery require sedation. Also, risk with a male is greater due to the plumbing and most surgeons are suggesting to neuter him while they are there. To me, he's too young. Would appreciate thoughts and feedback on the matter from those faced with this decision.
I can't be of any help, but I just want you to know that there are several members of the forum who've had dogs diagnosed with hip/elbow dysplasia at a very young age and subsequently had surgery, but they're all in Europe so hopefully they'll chime in once they wake up.
So my understanding is the PennHip is an accredited method of hip scoring similar to the one we use here in the UK called BVA/KC hips score system. These results are then collated into a database. The usual reason we use this scoring system in the UK is for breeding purposes. I have had one of our dogs BVA/KC scored. This is because I wanted to get a crystal clear view on her hips and elbows as I planned to work and compete with her. They undertake BVA/KC hip scoring at no younger than 1 year old here, and this test is not used as a diagnostic tool, more an accurate snapshot of the joints at that time. They are taken once though in a dog's life. I am surprised, however, that your vets have suggested such an invasive procedure, based purely on clinical exam. There must have been some very clear indications that the hips are not developing properly. I am presuming that they are based at an orthopaedic referral centre? I would have as an owner, expected to see some physical evidence of a limp/discomfort at this point. Some joint laxity is to be expected at this age...note: I am not a vet, just my opinion! The thing is here, you are in charge of your puppy's wellbeing. You need to be completely happy with the relationship with your veterinary surgeon. When you are feeling this confused, then maybe take your puppy elsewhere for an exam and discussion would be a good idea. Certainly, I would not agree to anything before xrays are reviewed, and if I still uncertain I would get a second opinion.
Well, the xray is out for today as my son just accidentally fed him and they said no food before the exam/xray. We may reschedule for next week and with a Vet that does not perform the surgery. Even with that, I would prefer to not sedate him. Beanwood, thanks for the reply. To be clear it is our local vet that noticed this and mostly from our surprise and desire to want to know more that she recommended xrays and specifically PennHip. PennHip is used to obtain an indexed measure of joint laxity. And the studies all point to joint laxity = bad = +%OA. However, I do not believe there is any scientific evidence that proves this exactly? He has no signs of discomfort and appears happy/normal. My wife just wants to wait an see. My fear is that approach may not be able to take advantage of all options. However, likewise the fear of some of those options risks is equal. Two red flags are that a very reputable hospital in my area stopped performing pennhip xrays. 2nd is that those that seem to know the most about and promoting JPS are those that are performing the surgery routinely, while others are hesitant to even discuss it as an option. Using pennhip measures, a score of 30 or less is perfect joint confirmation, 30-70 is mild to moderate, and 70-100 is severe. They can only use JPS for 30-70. I suspect that there are a lot more dogs in the 30-70 range than the 30. There are also warnings that a dog with a score of 30 may still see changes later in life and end up with OA. I wish I knew nothing about any of this and were faced with only what toy to buy him next.
So sorry that you have this worry with your little love . I can understand your wife having a wait and see attitude , as this is exactly what I`m doing at the moment with our little rescue girl who has shocking back end joints . Just as an aside , my Lab boy who we lost to cancer three months ago often bunny hopped , as a puppy and an adult too , and yet his hips were absolutely fine . It is a predicament for you to be in as of course, you want to do your very best , and I wish you much luck x
Oh dear! Such a worry for you @NHLab. Can I ask if the parents had hip scoring? Hip issues in labs are heavily influenced by genetics, and tracing the history of closely related dogs can give some indication of joint health in your dog. Obviously, environment, diet, injury play their part too. Have you had a discussion with the breeder regarding your puppies hips? It won't harm to have the Xrays, and then you will know definitely what you are dealing with, and whether a JPS procedure is the best way forward. You can always get the radiographs reviewed through a second opinion before any treatment is undertaken. Xrays are also good at getting a "baseline" so you can monitor the hips and devise a care plan accordingly. Regarding your 2nd point above, it is not unusual for vets who are used to carrying out certain procedures to recommend them, especially if this is their area of expertise, so I wouldn't necessarily see that as a red flag I would want to quiz them about their outcomes, both long-term and short-term. Maybe schedule a visit, without puppy (or leave in the car with OH...)and just have a conversation with your vet around the condition, symptoms, treatment, timescales etc..
Other than the excellent information above, I would ask for clarification about the sedation - there is a difference between sedation an anaesthesia and as you mentioned that both the x-rays and surgery will be done under sedation, I wonder if there's some confusion, as surgery will obviously done under anaesthesia. In the UK, many clinics who perform the BVA/KC X-rays use general anaesthetic but there are a few who use mild sedation instead. When I have my girl's joints x-rayed, it will be at a clinic who uses the sedation because it is so much less intrusive (and dangerous) than the GA option.
I’m sorry that you’re going through a worrying time with your puppy. I can’t add anything to what others have already said, but I hope if you decide to go ahead with the xray the results show no need for any intervention but give you peace of mind. Just a thought: Wispa, my yellow lab, has always had a ‘froggy’ sit, particularly indoors. She’s now six and doesn’t seem to have any mobility issues yet. Her parents both had good hip scores.
Thanks all. Both parents scored well to ofa standards and breed lineage 3 generations but know this is not an absolute. Breeder was shocked and wanted to take him back, claiming she has never had a dog with such issues. They have been supportive in the matter. However, we are concerned for his health and equally that we don’t want to be taken for a ride. I think most vets are not unethical but my luck has been grim in the way of healthcare overall with some pretty big mistakes and diagnosis issues over the past few years. Data turns into information, information into knowledge. and finally.... knowledge into wisdom. Transition of anything is where quality and problems occur. So while we think we are wise, mistakes in processing occur even by the smartest folks. Ok, by now you sense my overall OCD? Haha. I think we are going to still get Xrayed but agreed to relax a little. The timing of this and treatment options has kept us worrying. My last dog taught me that life is too short and to value every second together and that resulted in almost 17 years that seemed so short to us.
Also, this week we have noticed his running changing from a hop to a gallop at higher speeds. I also think the surface matters. On snow, hops. On dry land he is starting to gallop. Wish I could post a pic of him to this through the media gallery but sense I need to be a member longer or have more posts.
If you're not a forum supporter, you have to use a third party host, like Flickr or Imgur, then you can post the BBCode in to share pictures
Hi @NHLab Sorry to hear you are having such worries. My girl was diagnosed with severe bilateral HD before she was a year old, following repeat/persistent limp that seems to have been triggered or exacerbated by a prolonged snow/ice period (not actually that common where we live in Scotland). She is very well adapted to her HD and although was on low dose NSAIDs for a few years, we stopped them a couple of years back and she is generally just fine. No surgery. Yup, she is going to at increased risk risk of OA as she gets older but she is 7.5 now and just fine. Personally, I wouldn't rush into it. I think ED may be different as early surgery (as I understand) can be really beneficial. I don't know if that helps you at all, but wanted to share my experience. jac
Hi @NHLab so sorry to hear of your concerns so gave been reading around on the subject out of interest. In my reading around I came across this article that I thought gave a balanced view Hip Dysplasia - Anderson Moores Veterinary Specialists PDFhttps://www.andersonmoores.com › files Together with an abstract from a small study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17223752
