Hi newbie to the forum here..on our journey to hopefully getting a lab, a dream of mine for many years! We've met a breeder, a friend of a friend, a few weeks ago regarding their black lab who was due to come into season soon... she has been mated today!!! I have now got hip scores and eye info on both Mum and Dad...they are as follows Dam Hips 6-8 Elbows 0-0 Eyes Clear Sire Hips 6-3 Elbows 0-0 Eyes Clear DNA clear PRA & CNM Slight concern that mum's hip a bit above average score...is this a big warning sign? Anything else to be concerned here....they were lovely people, saw another litter that they had, that have all now been rehomed, they have three dogs they breed from...seem to love their dogs a lot, nice set up in their home. Only 30 minutes from where we live and keen for us to visit when pups are born from 4 weeks old, as often as we like. Just want to be sure we are making the right decision here...it's a huge one. Read cover to cover Pippa's puppy book and Lab Handbook, talking to doggie friends and getting lots of sound advice about all things puppy... Thanks for any advice especially about these scores. Julie
Hi @JuliePenguin it's so exciting when planning to get a puppy, and scary too . A few of my thoughts and advice I give to clients :- The hip scores are higher than I would be comfortable with, especially as there are many dogs with 0/0 hips; but parental low hip scores don't guarantee that hip dysplasia can't occur just as 0:0 elbow scores don't guarantee a pup without elbow dysplasia . Have you checked the COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) and researched into both the sire and dam, their siblings, offspring, parents etc. for any and all health results available? What are dam and sire's temperaments? Are they nervous/reactive of anything - we now know that a nervous dam can pass that on to pups? What socialisation does the breeder do with her litters - again it is so much more than brought up with household noises, although that of course will help?
Thanks for taking time to reply @Jojo83 ... Are there any tables or something out there where I can look up "if the parents have hip-scores X & Y, then there is a Z% chance of a pup developing a problem later"? I don't really have any feel for what the odds are at all... are they small at 0/0 and increase rapidly with hip score, or quite large anyway and creep up more gradually? I hadn't heard of COI before. The books I have learned everything from so far are "The Labrador Handbook" and "The happy puppy handbook" and I didn't see any mention of that there. Where can I find out more? However, the breeders did have some big family trees for the 2 parents (going back 5 generations); I have a copy. There seem to be a lot of FTCH and FTW gun-dog awards scattered around amongst them too (both sides, all generations, over half the dogs have an FTW/FTCH on their name) and perhaps most interestingly it includes hip scores for the dam's parents (7/4 & 5/7) and the sire's parents (4/2 & 4/3). Elbows 0/0 for all in both generations. I liked the domestic setup at the breeder, the character and temperament of their lovely well-socialised dogs, and their closeness has a lot of advantages over having to go further afield ... it's just understanding how this hip score thing translates into actual risk is the one thing making me think twice. Thanks again Julie
Hi @JuliePenguin as far as I am aware there are no charts on risk of HD according to parental hip scores. You can have parents with 0/0 scores and you can have a pup that develops HD it's not as simple as scores. The lower score may indicate a lower risk but it's not just genetics but environmental inputs as well that can affect. It's why I always suggest researching through both Dam and Sire. Much the same on Elbows. My girl has ED with parents 0:0, grandparents etc and no known instance - a score doesn't give a guarantee, it may or may not reduce risk . If you want to find out more about the Dam and Sire you can create an account on the Kennel Club website (MyKC) and input both dogs to check the COI and also research on all health results. It can help decision making. Sorry I can't give any guarantees, we all have to decide what risks we are comfortable with and what we are not. One thought, as you mention lots of FTW/FTCH in the lineage, is have you looked into the potential temperament differences between 'field' and 'show' type
Hi again there @Jojo83 thanks so much for giving us all this advice, it's much appreciated...so sorry to hear your doggie has ED despite 0/0 scores, soo sad...all the scoring sounds like it gives you some clues, but as you say nothing is guaranteed, but important decisions and weighing up the risks...lots to think about for sure Wow we just used the KC's Mate Select tool on the parents... amazing all this info is just there ready to be consulted (it says "The pedigree data used to calculate this result extended back as far as 20 generations with the first 9 generations being fully complete").... anyway the result is: "Any puppies from this mating would have a coefficient value of 7.7%", which seems comparable with "The Annual Breed Average inbreeding coefficient for this breed is 6.5%"; that's for "Retriever (Labrador)". So while that doesn't quite meet the recommendation to try and push the coefficient below the breed average, it doesn't seem way out of line either. Yes we've looked into the difference between "field" and "show" types; it's a bit of a generalization and all dogs are different, but we do have a preference for the "field" types relative leanness (the dam is a fine example), agility and intelligence. We also have a bit of experience dealing with dogs with a strong "hunting instinct" already. Thank you soo much again for your worldly lab advice
@JuliePenguin There is some really useful info on the MyKC, sometimes more so than others. Personally I wouldn't be too happy with 7.7% COI as I've seen numerous litters with lower - yes I'm looking for a pup but it may not be another Lab . I'm so pleased to hear that you've been doing so much research, although I think we're never quite as prepared as we think when we bring a new pup into our lives. I see so many clients who haven't researched their pup or their parents, or the breed characteristics. Looking forward to seeing those first puppy photos - oh and now is a goid time to start researching trainers and going along to their classes to see them in action
Thanks again @Jojo83 really appreciate all of this you have told us...we just wanna be sure we get the right doggie for us! I thankfully know of some great trainers, highly recommended by lots of folk, run by a friend of mine who has had a mass of experience with dogs for many years and a wealth of training experience too, am in a great net work of doggie people too so many folk to help and some have already offered to lend me things that they no longer need, a crate and also a puppy carrying thing before the pup has its full vacs to carry it outside and introduce it to sounds of the world...it's now just being sure we find the right breeder and then choosing the pup for us!
