Dear Forum members, I am a proud and sleep-deprived owner of a 4m old male choc puppy (Apsha) who I intend to raise and train to be a family- and gundog all by myself using positive training methods exclusively. We started-off right at 8 weeks and he is wonderful with all the joys and troubles a lab puppy can give, but I am lost a little bit and would seek your advice here. How to train a puppy the positive way? – I asked myself and being a bookworm I started reading, watching videos, researching etc well before his arrival. Pippa, the Wildrose Way, Stonnie Denis, Dr Sophia Yin, Karen Pryor and her successors, The Labradorsite, this forum…. I think I have my resources right. Books purchased, read, learnt ….. but applied? I do not think so. I have a good hour every day and much more time during the weekend for training (and for long walks in the forest) but I do not have a training plan that could tell me exactly what to do on a Monday morning from 6-7am with His Labradorness… Does it mean that I do not know what I want from my dog? No, I think I have a fairly good idea what my ideal lab looks or more precisely behaves, I know how each (or at least most) exercise should be taught but more often than not I just stand there quite sleepy and “do something” and knowing each and every moment I interact with him I am actually training as well, I fear I am doing this all wrong. Let me give you an example: when Apsha arrived I started free shaping him with food rewards and he was sitting reliably after 15 minutes whenever he comes up to me (aka say please by sitting) something that he still does perfectly. Then I tried the drop by luring and by now when he hears “drop” he does it (even with my 5yro daughter) if there is not much distraction. Loose leash walking? Piece of cake: tried it in the garden 10-15 times with lots of rewards and he even does it in the forest without a leash (also on the street until we have someone or something he thinks should be greeted or played with but that is ok for now). So what is the problem you may ask? Well, I tried charging the clicker in the garden (he is an outdoor dog except for the pipe-room and the hunting room outside the house) and he comes/follows, reached me, starts to sit, just as the bottom touches the ground: C/T. Did this 10-15 times but whatever else he is doing, I click and he could not care less… (I know the clicker is not really charged then). So I cannot tell him he is doing anything good with the clicker. The call? We are nowhere with this. Practised running away and when he follows (100% of the time) I say: “Apsha come!” and he comes and sits and gets his reward and praise … but if he is even 10 meters away, not preoccupied just daydreaming and I call he just stares at me with those brown eyes and nothing. Tried this with my daughter and wife 2 or 3 of us calling him and giving a treat, worked like charm, he runs.. then when called looks like he has never seen me in his life. I would like him to respond to a whistle, a voice command and sign as well but do not know where to even start… So what’s your advise to start actually getting somewhere? Take Total Recall (or another excellent positive training book for that matter) and do nothing else until it is 100% down? Make a list of exercises (with a detailed list of what exactly I expect him to do when the drill is excellent and break it down to individual steps) and make a weekly/monthly plan of what we shall practice in each session? I have a hunting buddy who has the most well behaved, excellent Hungarian vizsla’s I have ever seen – but he is not totally force-free and there is no point taking half of his advice I think. We do have some positive training schools but they are quite far and I still believe – despite the current state of the matters – that I can accomplish this on my own.
I don't think I understand what you mean. You are clicking and he doesn't care about the click? Does he want the food? I don't think I understand the situation and what is happening. It doesn't sound like you have taught him the cue. He only knows to 'chase' you if you run away, not what 'Apsha Come' means. A cue must come FIRST, then the behaviour. You must start with tasty treats (very tasty). One person holds the puppy. The other person lets the puppy smell the tasty treat, then backs away 5-10m. That person calls 'Apsha Come', and THEN the puppy is released to do the behaviour (come). Cues come first. Then behaviours. You don't get the behaviour and say the word whilst the dog is already doing it. You need to get the cue in, before. And then repeat, over and over and over - the exact same cue and situation, calling 'Apsha Come' in the same way, with the same pitch to your voice, every time. If you ever say 'Apsha Come' and he doesn't come, you should be instantly where he is with a treat on his nose, luring him to come to you. If you say sit and he doesn't, you should instantly have the treat on his nose and be showing him what a Sit is. Dogs don't learn in a linear way (nor do people) and it is normal for him to appear to know something and then suddenly not to - training in a different location or a different time of day or with different scent in the air etc etc etc - will all mean that your training needs to be generalised to that new situation. Which essentially means - taught from scratch, in that new situation. It will be much faster to teach it... I'm not sure how old he is now, as you don't say... but it takes time to train a dog. And yes, there is an overwhelming amount to teach a new puppy, it feels completely insurmountable at first. Use his normal meals/food for training with, or he will end up obese - just for the recalls, use something very very tasty. You can make a list of the behaviours you want to teach, if that makes it easier. I think it would probably help you to enrol on a good online training puppy training course or even to look at YouTube for videos from Kikopup, who covers just about everything there is to cover...
Hi @Kevin_Apsha your dog is 4 months old. You are expecting way too much. Temper your expectations. Be fair. Be fun. Proofing is not an easy step. Re-read the section in Pippa's book Total Recall for a clear explanation of what it entails. When you change a criterion, such as place, you have to go back to the acquisition phase. At 4 months of age you should be doing lots of playing with your puppy. Your hour-long training sessions are way, way too long. You will end up demotivating the dog. Keep the training sessions to 2 or 3 minutes for one exercise. And then play or let the pup have a rest. If you do one exercise straight after another exercise, then the dog will not retain a great deal of a lesson. How much would you have retained if you had been taught maths, swimming, reading, writing, geography, history, one after the other, all in one hour?
First of all, thank you both for taking the time to anwser. English is not my first language so I might have written something that is a bit misleading or otherwise confusing, so I will try to clarify the situation hoping you will again share your thoughts. A typical weekday would look like this from Apsha's perspective: - whenever he wakes up and starts making some noise, I wake up, wait until he is silent, go greet and let him out of his kennel - after the toilet, we just play around with nothing particular in my mind, no commands, no treats, no training - then I fill my pocket with his breakfast kibble and do some practice (it is random - maybe unfortunately - what we will practise) for 2-3 minutes, giving him treats and I try to catch a good/quick response and finish it off with a high note giving him the rest of his breakfast as a huge surprise treat or we go for a good walk, where I treat him often for loose-leash, for sitting when I stop, for not lunging at bypassers but no other training or exercise is involved (this is a good 30-40min walk) in this case he gets his breakfast en-route and the end of the walk is the big treat with the remainder of his food - he is out until we leave the house - lunch is usually free-time for him in the garden, no training, getting his food - in the evening he is out in the garden, playing with us or relaxing and we either do a short exercise (maybe together with my 5yro daughter) or take a walk if we did not manage in the morning - whenever we take a big walk in the forest, he is 90% off-leash (legal here) no training just taking a walk, if/when on leash he gets treats for loose-leash walking and stopping/sitting whenever I stop I try to introduce him to a big variety of situation/people/places but try never to boss him around when in such a new situation. The clicker: when I bring the clicker out (not always and usually in the morning) the sequence is the following: - treat in the pocket we go to the back terrace (less distraction as it is completely empty and flat) - he follows, sits, gets a treat a "Cleveeeeeeeer" and a pat - I move a bit (a few steps), he follows, I stop, he reaches me, starts to sit, bottom hits the ground, I say "Apsha sit", then click then treat (I may be be doing this completely wrong but this is how it is today) - he just stays there usually, so I move a bit and repeat -l I will also tell: "Apsha Down" and when his front knees touch the ground click and treat - a few minutes of practicing and a big treat and praise for the last correct movement and he is "dismissed" and we play My problem here is that I feel the clicker is not charged properly and later during the day when I see something I like and would like to catch, I click he looks at my direction but does not move to me for a treat (that he should be expecting to come after the sound of the clicker). @Jo Laurens I will follow your advice re. the Come and the response for the unsuccessful cue @Michael A Brooks : the last thing I want is to overdo Apsha. yes, I may be expecting too much but I make sure he can be just a happy puppy without too much training. will also go back to TR proofing ... and although I received a lot of good advise, my original - maybe not properly articulated/phrased - question still remains: do you teach and train one exercise until it is learned, proofed, clicker faded-out, tried and tested or you have 2-3 min sessions a day, one exercise per session but more than one exercise druing the week? I am most probably looking for some experiences of others (anyone made a list and order of the exercises thay want to teach?) who managed to have an at least somewhat disciplined and well behaving lab by the 1yr mark (I have no fixation on the 1yr mark just an example).
Hi @Kevin_Apsha many thanks for the length yreply. Your English is very good. I now understand better what you are doing. You've got good intentions and having fun with your puppy.. I'll make some comments and then answer your question. I think 40 minute walks are too much for a puppy. The bones and joints are growing quickly. You need to reduce the length of the walks for at least the year. You seem to be using capturing as your teaching method. Your timing should be sit at precisely the puppy's hindquarters hits the ground. Click + treat. Then give a release word. And let your dog move off. Capturing can be difficult because the dog may not know why it has received the treat. Was it because she was looking at say a bird or was it because she was sitting? I believe you would make better progress if you switched to luring. With luring don't use a cue until the dog is complying at least 90 percent of your repetitions. The routine is click and then treat when she has performed the desired action. Now to your question. You don't have to do just one thing until it is perfect. It would be boring and demotivate your dog. When you are in the teaching or acquisition phase I suggest you do sit for 5 repetitions. It should take no more than 2 minutes. Then Play with the dog for 5 minutes. Then let her have a break so she can nap or just be a puppy Then say an hour later do drop for 2 minutes. At your dog's age the only reason I'm suggesting 5 repetitions is that she may be still learning what you want her to do. If however she does it perfectly the first time to the standard you have set for that training session then dont just keep repeating the same thing. She will become bored and rightly think why are you asking me to do the same thing again. If the action was what you had expected for that teaching session then play with her. Be interesting. Then give her a break until your next session say one hour later.
hl @Kevin_Apsha re your second query 1 use luring for sit and down 2 use guidance for stand and recall 3 go to mat using shaping 4 sit stay and down stay for impulse control. 5 targeting [nose push or paw] 6. loose lead walking 7 heeling 8 retrieve. Have fun. If she does not succeed on my suggested list of things I would do over the first year then that's fine. Assess your individual dog rather than be burdened by my expectations. Train the dog in front of you.
There are lots a lots of thing going on that others might comment on. But just on this one thing. Pups have to learn what they need to do on the click. They don't automatically know. If sometimes you reward "in position" and sometimes you reward "for movement" then it needs to be really clear to the dog which is which. So for a stay at my side, a click means move. For a stay remote from me, a click means hold your position until I walk back to you or tell you to get a reinforcer. My dogs know this by the way I have delivered the reinforcer. They know the game. But you have to teach that, otherwise it's just confusing.
Pups are very un-coordinated. They don't know how to get to the reinforcer yet, they are not yet fully in control of their bodies, or aware of how the world works. Don't expect him to come to you when you click - if you click and he stands there, go to him and reinforce wherever he is. There is no rule that says a dog should come to you when they hear the clicker. The click means they have earned a reinforcer, it doesn't specify how that reinforcer is going to be delivered. You are constantly training all kinds of things, as the situation requires. Some behaviours (like positions - sit and down) it is best to train in separate training sessions so they stay separate in the dog's mind, but besides that you are working on all kinds of things at once. Keep sessions short because puppies have short attention spans, but you can have as many short sessions as you like during the day. And take care with the exercise - 30-40mins is a lot of exercise for a little pup. Work more on mental stimulation: I'd suggest stopping on the walk and spending a lot of time doing little training sessions so you don't walk as far and generalise behaviours too...
