When is it safe to use a prong collar?

Discussion in 'Labrador Training' started by raf108, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. raf108

    raf108 Registered Users

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    Hi everyone,
    Our male yellow lab “Summer” is 21 weeks old and weighs 70 lbs.
    He is incredibly strong and agile. He struts around like a lion cub, playing with his older brother Raphael, until it gets too rough, then Raphael just wants to hump Summer.
    The harness works well to prevent the hard pulling, but still need control of a collar.
    So, is 6 months old too young to start with a prong collar when we go out for a group ride.
    Thanks in advance for any opinions.
    Jon
     
  2. JenBainbridge

    JenBainbridge Registered Users

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    It is never acceptable to use a prong collar.

    Training and perseverance is the only way.
     
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  3. edzbird

    edzbird Registered Users

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    Never. Never is it safe. Never is it kind. Never is it humane. Never is it acceptable.

    Keep up with the training & you will get there.
     
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  4. Joy

    Joy Registered Users

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    Look at Kikopup videos on YouTube for ideas on how to train without hurting your puppy. Or ask on here for specific advice about what behaviour you are trying to control - I wasn't sure from your post whether you needed help with lead walking or in calling him away from another dog. Many of us have well-behaved adult dogs that we have raised from puppies without using force. And this forum only supports force-free methods.
     
  5. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    There plenty of training ideas on this site to help you train your dog without cruelty.

    There are no circumstances were the use of such a cruel unethical inhuman device is acceptable.

    I have trained and raised male labs over the last 33 years and have never treated one of my dogs so cruelly. Just think what you are subjecting your puppy too. Sharp metal prongs stabbed into the delicate flesh and nerves of any dog are totally unacceptable.
     
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  6. raf108

    raf108 Registered Users

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    Thank you all for enlightening me.
    Will just stick with training, no harsh collars.
    We love our two boys!!!
    Jon
     
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  7. Chewies_mum

    Chewies_mum Registered Users

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    That's great to hear. Just remember that there will be good days and bad days, but you will get there with perseverance and patience.
     
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  8. edzbird

    edzbird Registered Users

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    Super new Jon. Training your puppy will be such fun (and frustrating if I'm honest) but it will really strengthen your bond.
     
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  9. Beanwood

    Beanwood Registered Users

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    @raf108 it is good you are using a harness, especially when working with a big, strong dog. Depending on which harness you are using, some are better than others, for example, a harness with two attachments, front and back you might find easier as you then have two points of control to safely manage your dog until you have a better loose lead walk under your belt.

    The second point to address is the over excitement with both dogs. Now bear in mind I am no canine behaviourist, however, my understanding is that rehearsing too much boisterous behaviour whilst over aroused can build up problems later, with both dogs thinking this is acceptable, especially when out in dog parks etc..

    What might help in interrupting play before they get too aroused, as humping in this context is a sign of being over excitement, and this is where you can run into difficulties! It is also challenging to get dogs to "listen" to you in this state. At 6 months old, Summer is still young, although a very big boy and exuberant play can lead to joint problems through accidental knocks and bumps, just something to bear in mind.

    Allowing them both to interact for a few minutes, then ask them both for a behaviour, such as sit, down, go to bed, or anything else they have learnt, they then get used to being together, but not being boisterous. Teaching calm behaviours individually before the exercise above would also be useful, and a good life skill to teach summer. In the meantime, baby gates or crate training maybe something also to consider.

    Here are some links you might find useful :)

    thelabradorsite.com dog-calming

    punishment-in-dog-training/#examples-of-punishers-dog-training



    Now is a good time to think about "boundary" training, for example rewarding your dog for going to bed, and remaining calm and content.



    Finally, as already mentioned, we do not advocate the use of aversives on the forum, such as prong collars. The forum ethos is around positive reinforcement training. Of course, understand why these methods are used, and in some circles, aversives are still common (fortunately though on the decline!).

    Do let us know how you get on! :)
     
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  10. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    I know you said that you are using a harness, but really there are many different types of harness and some of them effectively make the dog very strong and you comparatively powerless - whilst others give you more control when you need it for safety and to prevent getting towed up to things!

    So - it would be worth thinking about the type of harness you have. What brand do you have? Whichever brand you choose, you want it to have an attachment point on the dog's chest - under their chin on the sternum - as well as on their back in the regular place. These double-attachment point harnesses will give you great control over even large and powerful dogs.

    If you only have an attachment point on the dog's spine or back, you are probably going to end up getting pulled along!

    I would highly recommend the Freedom harness if you are struggling with control:
     
  11. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Really? Because a back fastening harness is NOT a sled harness, you know - if you know anything about physics, you can see that very clearly. Back fastening harnesses generally do not make a dog more powerful (that's pretty impossible, really :D). They generally have the effect of slightly lifting the front paws of a lunging/pulling dog, greatly reducing traction of the dog - if the handler stands still, that is.

    Are you aware of some of the research that suggests front fastening harnesses can have a significant detrimental impact on a dog's gait?

    https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html

    I have written to Christine Zink a couple of times asking to follow up on this research (no reply yet, unfortunately) but the really world class physio centre I take my dog to, pretty much thinks front fastening harnesses are the work of the devil, gait/physical wise.....this isn't restricted to harnesses that are straight across the front (in my view), I think any harness that works by pulling a dog towards the handler has a potentially detrimental impact.
     
  12. Michael A Brooks

    Michael A Brooks Registered Users

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    Another problem with no-pull harnesses is that some handlers believe that the harness itself will teach the dog not to pull. And that there is no need for the handler to do anything other than hold the lead. A prime example of misleading labelling.
    I think the way to go is to first teach the young dog to heel off lead. The handler has to learn how to reinforce the dog walking beside the handler without being able to use a lead at all. Teaches the dog correct choice. Helps handler with timing, and the importance of intermittent reinforcement. The lead comes later as a security device, and to comply with by-laws. So prong collars, front-attaching harness, are all put to one side.
    As many of you are well aware, there is a period when a puppy will naturally follow the owner. It's a golden period for teaching off-lead heeling. Older dogs can be taught off-lead heeling but it takes longer to teach an older dog new tricks.
     
  13. raf108

    raf108 Registered Users

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    Thank you all so much!
    The harness on summer has two points to connect to, we use the one on the back.
    He still walks well on a heal when just with collar and lead.
    We are keeping the two boys calm when together. Summer often starts the rough play, so we just don’t allow it.
    We find that they are calmer when together in out 36’ long kennel, no trees to bump into.
    Jon
     
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  14. Tammy Cooke

    Tammy Cooke Registered Users

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    Hello
    I’d never heard of prong collars before reading this so had to look it up. I’d heard of check chains but not this. As others above have stressed there is never a time where it is acceptable to use this type of collar. I feel traumatised at the site of the collar on investigating it further.
    Perseverance and training both of which will bring you and Summer closer together and strengthen your bond. All the best
     
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  15. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    Yup, really. I can guarantee that if you attach a back-fastening harness to a 45kg dog and that dog lunges, you will feel more force applied to your shoulder and arm, than if you attach a leash to a front-fastening harness (or - what I really recommend - front and back fastening harness) and the same dog lunges in the same way towards the same thing.

    I can also guarantee that a dog trying to pull in a back-fastening harness (where pulling is in a general and constant way and not a sudden lunge) is going to able to apply more constant force to something behind them, than to something in front of them. That much is basic physics and why huskies don't have their harnesses attached in front of them, and why that would be pretty ludicrous to imagine...

    Well, they may do that if the dog lunges, but that is not how they work when walking along by your side. The front paws are not going to be able to walk much if they are not in constant contact with the ground! I think you might be confusing them with harnesses which tighten under the armpits of the dog and are marketed as 'anti-pull' harnesses. These are not really recommended...

    Yup, but thanks :) I think it is way more important that people are able to take their dogs out of their house and to feel that their dog is physically secure and they are able to control and keep the dog safe - and secondly that they avoid feeling the need to turn to truly aversive equipment like prong collars and ecollars - and even head collars - than that they worry about whether their dogs' legs may be slightly barricaded.

    I've worked with loads and loads and loads of dogs in Freedom harnesses and have never seen an injury resulting from them or their gait affected in any way. Maybe it happens, but I haven't seen it. On the other hand, I have worked with probably hundreds of dogs who receive inadequate exercise because their owners feel unsafe taking them out of the house and also hundreds subjected to prong collars, choke chains and even ecollars because it's the only way owners feel able to control them. And I've worked with - again- hundreds who have felt so much more in control of their dog and more comfortable with them in public as a result, after switching to a Freedom harness.

    If people have dogs they feel in control of and if control isn't a factor in the decision and also if the person wants to do a very active dog sport, then I totally agree that a harness which doesn't barricade the front legs is optimal. But in a situation where control is an issue, that takes priority for quality of life reasons. Trying to deter people from using a front-attaching harness in these circumstances condemns the dog to either not leaving the house, or to punishment and aversives.

    I personally wouldn't want to train 'reverse' by walking into my dog, teach paw waves by sticking annoying stuff to my dog's nose to get off, or work my own dogs in collars, and I would seek advice from someone who has similar training principles and ethics as me.

    The only research or published views in this vein, refer to harnesses which barricade the dog's shoulder muscles, not to just any front-attaching harness. In fact, Perfect Fit (who manufacture front-attaching harnesses) have done quite a bit of research themselves into harnesses and physio - and show an awareness of anatomy: https://www.k9pa.com/perfect-fit-harness/ They are also recommended worldwide by many top force-free trainers and behaviourists. You may not like 'any harness which attaches in the front' - but there is no evidence at all that these are at all detrimental, so this is only your personal opinion :)

    But it doesn't work like that. Can you see any dogs being 'pulled towards the handler' in the video above?

    It is basic physics that the further towards the front of the dog that you attach something, the more control you will have over the dog. That is why the most (physical) control you can have, is with a head collar. It's why we use head collars with very large animals like horses or cows, sheep and goats. It's why bulls have rings through the noses: The more you control the tip of the animal, the more control you have over the whole animal. Can you imagine trying to control a horse (physically, not via training) using a back-fastening harness??

    That is also why flat collars give more control than a back-fastening harness - the neck is closer to the tip of the dog, than the back of the dog's spine is.

    And it is also why front-attaching harnesses give more control than back-attaching harnesses - you have attached nearer to the tip of the dog. And although not attached to their face or nose, you are attached to the front of the powerhouse of the dog - their torso or chest.
     
  16. Ski-Patroller

    Ski-Patroller Cooper, Terminally Cute

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    I use a back fastening harness when I want my dog to pull me on skis. It is not a a real sled harness, but she can pull very hard when it is connected in the back. I would never want to train loose lead with it.
     
  17. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    That's all in the training and the associations made. For sure, back fastening harnesses often do result in dogs pulling and therefore learning to pull - but they need not.

    When they do, what happens is: The dog pulls to reach what they want to reach; the owner moves (is pulled, accidentally) and allows them to get closer to it; pulling is reinforced. The reason this occurs more with a back-fastening harness is because dogs can be very strong and take people by surprise when they want to reach something, and because a back-fastening harness gives a dog a lot of strength, a big dog in a back fastening harness, can successfully tow even a strong adult a step or two towards something. Then pulling gets reinforced...

    They can't do that, in a front-fastening harness or in a back-and-front fastening harness. They just won't have as much power so they won't be able to move the person - so the pulling doesn't result in being able to move their owner towards what they want, and isn't reinforced.

    But, if you have a smaller dog and are able to stand firm when the dog pulls, there's no reason you can't use a back-fastening harness for loose-lead walking. You wouldn't also want to use the same harness when you want pulling, though - that would be confusing. You'd need to have a different harness.

    Example: I do tracking with one of my dogs and she wears a leather back-fastening tracking harness for that, and pulls me like a train. I also do nosework/scent detection, and she wears yet another type of harness for that and knows again that she is in charge and can move about in front and 'take' me places. And then, for regular walking, I have a back-fastening harness and she knows then that she needs to maintain heel position and walk by my side. Dogs can be quite context specific and we can really use that...
     
  18. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    You may like front fastening harnesses, but there is no evidence that they are safe. So that’s only your personal opinion. [​IMG]J

    I am not confusing front fastening harnesses with those that tighten round the body. My concerns are not limited to those harnesses that restrict shoulder movement.

    I am talking about the harnesses that you are recommending.

    *Content deleted by our mods team. See the forum guidelines for more information*

    I don’t say these things because I have some random dislike of front fastening harnesses. Like I woke up one morning and thought “oh, I know, I’ll hate front fastening harnesses”. :D

    It’s because I’ve got a dog with joint problems, have spent a great deal of time in rehabilitation centres with owners with dogs with joint problems, understand and have researched the importance of natural gait, have listened to really good vets and live in a place where I can observe hundreds if not thousands of dogs every month in different collars, harnesses, and so on. And I do. I watch dogs, and I watch how they move.

    Just read the posts on this forum from owners with joint problems before you take it all so lightly. If you do, I can’t believe you could.

    Please, please – I know you recommend front fastening harnesses often and have written articles on them – but for pity’s sake, please at least think about the fact that by doing so you could be causing harm.

    I honestly believe that in years to come, we will look back on front fastening harnesses and acknowledge that that are harmful – and just for now it just sounds as outlandish as saying that about collars, and early spaying, and kids changing the way they walked because they were carrying book bags, and so on, did years ago.
     
  19. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    Julie, I can't respond to everything you said because it appears to have been edited out by the mods team...

    Well the evidence, as it were, is that there is zero evidence they are harmful. There is no research to prove that dog beds, for example, are 'safe' - yet we still use them. Assuming the material itself is safe, the onus is on people who believe items are NOT safe, to 'prove' that - not vice versa.

    As I'm sure you'll know, there are many many contributory factors to joint disease in dogs - from quite complicated genetics, in terms of the mode of inheritance; to the traction puppies have in the whelping box; to the surfaces in their owners' homes; to the amount of exercise they are provided with; to jumping from a young age or not; to stairs; to injuries... There are so many different variables, it's unlikely we will ever know exactly how much each factor contributes, in each dog's case - let alone be able to determine whether front-fastening harnesses contribute anything at all.

    Even science-based puppy-raising systems can't agree on how much exercise puppies should receive, with Puppy Culture recommending no more than 50-200 feet at a time for 8-12 week old puppies (https://www.puppyculture.com/new-exercise-chart.html) and Avidog recommending lengthy off-leash 'Woods Walks' lasting 45 mins to an hour for the same age - if science-based folks can't even agree what is optimal exercise for preventing joint disease, I doubt there will ever be conclusive proof on harnesses.

    But even thinking logically about it, it makes no sense to say that being able to prevent a dog from walking forwards is 'damaging' somehow. Because that's all a front-fastening harness like the Perfect Fit is doing (assuming it doesn't also barricade the shoulders).

    And as I said above: People need solutions. They need to be able to take their dogs out and exercise them and feel in control of them. And whilst of course training should always be held up as the primary way to achieve this, often people need equipment to help whilst the training is being done - for the times when their strong dog might otherwise tow them somewhere - and many other people just don't have the time or inclination to train their dogs, but still need to exercise them. These people would all be struggling a whole lot more and far more inclined to turn to the power-steering of a prong collar - or instead never to take their dog out the house - if it weren't for front-fastening harnesses. And a prong collar or choke chain, or the huge deprivation of remaining in the yard all the time, is going to do far more physical and psychological harm to a dog, than a front-attaching harness.
     
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