Hi, Alfie is 12 weeks old and is our fourth Labrador in 38 years of marriage. I've used The Labrador Handbook, Total Recall and The Happy Puppy to create a training programme for him which I started , quite gently, when he came to live with us four weeks ago. I have a background in training humans (!) so used that experience to shape and structure my "programme" for Alfie and even keep a daily training log to monitor progress. We only engage in formal training in ten minute sessions maybe twice a day and I do my best to make it fun for him and for me. Sometimes, opportunities present themselves to establish a new behaviour and I try to take advantage of those as they arise. What is puzzling me now, because Alfie has proved to be a great little learner and responds so well, is that we are in danger of moving ahead of Pippa's recommended schedules. For example, Total Recall recommends that we shouldn't commence the Basic Recall exercises until the pup is 16 weeks old, but Alfie seems ready to move on right now, and in fact by default we have already introduced some of the activities in that section as part of games (e.g. hide and seek). I'm currently left with the decision to stick with the repetition of Puppy Recall exercises which he has absolutely mastered, for another four weeks or to move on to Basic Recall four weeks earlier than recommended. My instinct is to move on as he seems ready for it but I'd be interested to know from a professional behaviourist's point of view if that might be problematic. May I finish by saying that I think Pippa's three books are the best that I have ever come across in respect of dog training. They remove the guesswork and have clarified things that may have puzzled me in the past using different texts. Thanks for putting this invaluable information along with your considerable experience out there for use by the rest of us.
Yes, absolutely move ahead if you feel you've mastered previous steps I'm sure those are just guidelines, not set in stone. I would only disagree with the part about variable reinforcement, in Total Recall - personally, I always reinforce recalls with an amazing treat every time. This article explains more: https://eileenanddogs.com/2018/09/11/variable-reinforcement-stronger-behavior/
Hi @Alfie's Dad I too would move onto next level rather allowing the dog to get bored at one level. I think your training sessions are too long. Two or Three minutes is preferred to 10 minutes. In doing so, one does just one exercise. If one does one exercise straight after another the dog will retain less of each exercise, your dog so far disproving the principle. I side with Pippa on reinforcement of recall with variable reinforcement. If done properly, it generally results in a stronger recall, and that maybe something you want when your dog is potentially distracted. Last but not least, congratulations on your training. Be warned, don't expect a continuous upward trajectory. Your dog will in all likelihood plateau or regress when the teenager appears, and you start proofing in high distraction and unfamiliar environments. If that does occur, then that is not a fault of your training. Just a part of lhe training process of developing fluency and consolidation. Keep us informed of your training tale.
Thanks Jo. I will have good think about the variable reinforcement points you make. As it happens I have started training with loads of "premium" and "bonus" treats and very gradually introduced basic treats - but he is a typically greedy Labrador pup and seems as delighted with couple of pieces of his kibble as with a handful of juicy chicken. Your view concurs with Michael's comment below ing respect of moving on his recall training and I think I will do that - although the next week or so will be focussed on transferring his ability to walk well on a lead from our garden and drive to the real world outside. Fun times! By the way, I realise that my original post makes Alfie look like a little saint - wrong - he is the typical Labrador "Piranha Dog" - I have the teeth marks to prove it - but inside that pup is a fantastic family companion just waiting to emerge.
Thanks for your comments Michael and I will take them into account. Alfie's attention span does support about ten minutes just now and then we turn to simple, unstructured play and fun. I entirely agree regarding the forthcoming "plateau". I have experienced that before with my previous dogs. All that promise seems to disappear for a little while before re-establishing. What I would say about this pup, that I haven't seen before in a dog so young, is that there have already been circumstances where he has been in the midst of really huge distraction - such as having a visiting three year old Spaniel leaping around him playing with a ball that was being brandished by that dogs owner, when I have risked using the recall signal, and the pup has broken away to immediately gallop to me (as much as a 12 week old pup can!). He has done the same when I had my two young granddaughters deliberately trying to entice him from the other side of a gate. I just hope this indicates something strong inside him!
Just to add - isn't it fantastic that this forum can bring all that experience from opposite sides of the world together? Hello to you in Australia from England!
It isn't so much the dog's age and attention span that speaks in favour of brief learning sessions. Learning something new is maximised when the learning session is brief and this is true even for older dogs. The idea is to concentrate on just one thing, then take a break.Apparently some quiet time In crate is first best, play second best, and another exercise is just poor pedagogy. Good training!
I thought that there was some evidence that play after training was a bigger reinforcer of learning than rest. https://www.researchgate.net/public...abrador_Retriever_dogs_Canis_lupus_familiaris However this study was only 16 dogs so I'd be interested if you can point me to other studies. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just really interested in training. And well done @Alfie's Dad - it sounds as if you're doing really well.
Hi Joy, I was familiar with the paper you quoted. I had read Stan Coren's summary of the research some time ago. I brought the issue up in a course I attended on scent training. The experienced instructor told us that he believed that our dogs would learn better with a period of rest on account of the claim that scent training is such a mentally demanding exercise. Significantly, at the practical session the instructor incorporated play and prey drive as the method of teaching an association with a scent. The dog was highly aroused and in high drive (but below threshold) throughout the acquisition stage. The dog was rested at the end of the first session. The first session lasted no more than 2 minutes. No source was quoted other than his 10 years of experience training scent dogs for Australian bio-security agencies.
Thank you @Michael A Brooks . So it might well depend on what the activity being trained is / how aroused the dog is during it.
Hi @Joy i have now read the original paper. In their final section, they acknowledge they have not separated the effect of exercise , and the emotional stimulation of the exercise on learning. They also acknowledge in part of a sentence that play during learning helps to promote learning in humans. The exercise itself they teach the dogs is poorly described. It is hard for example, to determine what methods the handlers used to teach the exercise, So where does that leave us? More research is required. As you suggest and my instructor claimed, the impact of play on learning MAY depend on the task and how the instruction is actually conducted. Second, I will need in the future to be more circumspect in referencing the posiible effects of post-and contemporaneous-play on learning. Thanks for poiinting out my flawed claim.I stand corrected. As for the importance of play as a way of packing learning it is something I had been doing with humans for the last two decades of my teaching career. I now have to think about how one could introduce more play for the dogs into actual obedience lessons. For that unintended nudge thank you. As an aside, it may be the case that the humans need play more than the dogs. In Tasmania the numbers of individuals doing obedience classes has been seriously declining over the last 10 years. I think there are many reasons for the decline, but the general uninpiring way it is taught may be one such factor. Perhaps there is a need for more playfulness.
Hi @Michael A Brooks . I find this a fascinating area of research and found this report yesterday: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep41873 It's the second experiment that I found interesting, looking at how post-learning activities influenced memory consolidation. It involved 53 adult pet dogs and attempted to control for different levels of previous training. What was interesting when the dogs were retested long term ,meaning after a week, was that the groups who had walked or played or slept after the initial learning, had all improved from baseline testing. It was only the group who had moved straight on to learning another activity without a break who hadn't retained the original learning. This makes me think about how I plan my own dog's training as well as any classes I may run in future.
Hi @Joy many thanks for the reference. I will read the article tomorrow. Since our useful exchange, I have been thinking more about how I structure my own basic obedience class. I start my next class this coming Sunday. Over the past year, I have been asking each and every handler to give a release cue and just walk around with their dog. I tell the handlers to let their dogs sniff the area, which is visited by wallabies and rabbits during the previous night. I then call everyone back in for the next part of the lesson. Hmm. Sniffing is calming, and deeply enjoyable for the dogs. I would venture that that is play. After I wrote my reply to you, I wondered whether I should also buy a load of solid rubber balls and let them all play ball after each exercise. I can remember one Xmas many years ago, we all played a version of musical chairs with the dogs and handlers-- the dog and handler had to come to a sit next to a marker when the music stopped The handlers seemed to like it. I can't recall the reactions of all the dogs, since I was a participant rather than an observer. I might run an experiment this class. Perhaps you have already worked out a better route of incorporating play into an obedience class. If you or readers have ideas, then my ears are pricked.
Hi @Joy, well I'm glad that I had a night's sleep before trying to read the second paper. A good deal of dense information in the paper. The supplementary document did provide clear details about the experimental method. Really interesting. The researchers do not indicate what is the optimal or even the minimal amount of rest/play one should undertake between teaching new cues/criteria. Perhaps it is pointless to even attempt to incorporate play into a 45-minute obedience class, with the research having relevance only to what the owners do during their training while at home, when their dogs can play or sleep for say an hour (the scent discrimination instructor I referred to above had recommended giving our dogs a break for at least an hour) between training sessions that focus on different activities or performance criteria.
Hi @Michael A Brooks You're right about no indication about amount of rest/play needed between learning activities. I'm going to continue searching for studies and if I find anything I'll post it. I'm hoping to become qualified as an IMDT trainer and on the practical course dealing with class lessons that I attended we were told that after 10 minutes the dogs must be given a couple of minutes break (time to wander and sniff/ lie down / be petted depending on the dog) but no rationale given for the length of time and I didn't think about asking. As regards type of 'play' to include in lessons, I think we need to remember that it has to be what the individual dog considers 'play'. I've seen musical mats / sits at other classes and it has been fiercely competitive amongst the owners, and while some dogs may enjoy the excitement I know some dogs find it stressful.
Hi @Joy totally agree with your post. Play, just as what treats dogs find to be a valued is determined by the dog not we trainers. Most dogs find sniffing deeply satisfying. I'll stick to sniffing as an activity the dogs can do after being given a release cue, until I can think of anything worth integrating into the lessons. I have read many papers which maintain university lecturers should do something different after 10 minutes. Use a variety of different activities to help the participants maintain concentration. Listening can be very taxing. And in the case of dogs, we humans just talk too much. Good luck with the course. I know from first-hand experience that cert Iii courses on dog behaviour and training can be very demanding in terms of time. Many practical and written assignments and in my course, I had to go interstate for 3 weeks in total to do part of my practical work and assessment..
