My 12 week old pure chocolate female lab sometimes goes into what we have coined “Cujo” mode after playing for a little bit with us and toys. She will either jump and nip or get on her back while making growlish or gnawrling noises until you can get ahold of her. When this happens we place her in her enclosed area and she returns to a calm puppy. It was suggested to us by a family member(not a breader) that this is a behavior that is not able to be trained out of her(family member had a German Shepard). We have two boys 13 and 11. Do we need to seek professional help, return her to the breeder or is this normal “lab puppy” behavior?
Hi @Steve18 based on your limited explanation (albeit I have no idea what is a gnawrling noise) it sounds like normal behaviour to me. I suggest you start reading the many threads here under the Puppy folder on boisterous/over tired behaviour/mouthy behaviour.
sounds like Kyko when he gets over excited I would say perfectly normal behaviour, they are like children getting over tired
I think the advise you have been given is incorrect. Buddy is sooooo soft, he’s really chilled out now at 16 weeks, he falls asleep on our heads (when he’s not in his crate) doesn’t bother if we are near his food etc etc etc, you get the picture..... but when my daughter plays with him and gets him really excited he will bark, jump, growl etc, which I believe is perfectly normal.... I have found that he kind of needs to know he can’t work his way up the pecking order/dominate his ‘pack’, otherwise he will push his luck as so many have that I read about. And so if my daughter allows him to get the better of her so to speak, then he can be dominant. She is learning to stand her ground and tell him no (easier said than done I know) but it works..... That said, there’s much bigger picture, my daughter trains him as I do, he waits for her approval for him to have a treat or his dinner etc, and I believe this is a huge factor in his respect. We are a very soft, caring, loving family, but the old saying ‘give an inch they take a mile’ is no truer than with dogs. I think people think it might be cruel for dogs to be treated as dogs (in a sense) but they thrive off it. A bit like a child who, without knowing it, desperately needs guidance etc from their parents. So there are quite a lot of indirect ways to help with this behaviour as well. Apologies for going off slightly, and none of it may apply to you, and probably is just a phase, and I’m far from an expert, but just thought it might be worth a mention. Bottom line, this sounds like perfectly normal behaviour, and I understand it might be scary to think you have an aggressive dog, but they all growl, bark, bare there teeth etc, I’m sure you’ll be fine!
Your daughter may be having an impact but it certainly has nothing to do with the flawed theory of dominance and pack status. See paper linked in h3ttps://thelabradorforum.com/threads/1yr-old-labrador-is-vicious.25306/#post-381484 hat tip to Jo Laurens
I should’ve also said that I do believe it is play, I’m still learning, and there are so so many different opinions it makes it very difficult for new puppy owners, very difficult. I trust what Jo says and she is extremely helpful on this forum, so I will take this all onboard. For now, it seems what we are doing is working, for whatever reason that may be!
Happy that it is working. But the message of dominance has to be exposed for being seriously misleading nonsense. Many years ago a dog instructor told me to hold my puppy's mouth shut when she started biting me. I didn't know why it was wrong but I sensed that it could not be correct. I left the class. It's not just a matter of opinions. The academic that did the work on wolves, which dog trainers relied on, has disowned the work himself. It's seriously flawed.
I guess I should’ve been more careful (as I did think when writing) about using words like pack and dominance. I believe more along the lines of having a child not take the mickey out of you I suppose. And there just seems to be a healthy respect all round, no punishment/negative reinforcement etc, we are all for modern methods, which this coincides with.
Jean Donaldson said something in a seminar once which really stuck with me. Which is - where does this idea which humans have, of dogs, concerning dominance, come from? Because it's not coming from wolf packs and research doesn't support it. Which society perceives everything in terms of hierarchies and dominance... ? Human society of course. From the church, to the State, to a Symphony orchestra, to the army, to the cub scouts - every single human group imaginable functions via some people being above others in the hierarchy and in the pecking order. Dominance, then, is projected onto dogs from humans - because it is an innate part of human society, so we plaster it all over dogs. But it's not there, in dogs...
This is yet another very intriguing subject, and a very interesting point, with serious weight. So (and I say it again) I’m learning, intrigued, and know little about this, and please don’t think I’m questioning you, I’m genuinely asking a question from your knowledge and experience, but what is a dog doing when they ‘submit’ if there is no dominance? Also, Buddy was ‘the boss’ if you like, of the litter, confident, not submissive etc. Now when we take him back to see his siblings (the breeder kept 3) the other male (who they believe has sort of taken over) tries to pin him down by the back of his neck, hump him etc..... As I said, I’m absolutely not questioning you, I honestly want to learn about these behaviours and keep an open mind. Still so many people talk about dominance etc, thanks
They are giving appeasement signals to tell you (or the other dog) to please stop what you are doing. This is not really about 'dominance' - it's about different things depending on the age of the dog. If the two dogs are adolescents, especially males, it is about competition between males and testosterone causing dogs to want to size up the other. This is a more complex thing than dominance because it's about sexual development, a specific period in a dog's life, their brain development at that time and so on. The exact same thing happens with teenage boys playing 'chicken' with each other, nicking stuff from shops and so on to impress girls - we don't say they are trying to 'dominate' each other.... If it's between pups (or dogs which have learnt to bully and that this is fun), then it's about how much fun it is to be a bully. Again, this isn't about dominance, it's about a dog which is using the other dog like an object - like a soft toy or a tuggy - to satisfy their urge to rag and play, rather than learning to find out how the other puppy is feeling about the encounter, whether the other pup still wants to be there - and so on. Healthy play is a dialogue, it is about turn-taking and slowly shifting exchanges which change. Unhealthy play is a monopoly, one pup 'using' the other, regardless of how they feel about it, and pups getting stuck in the same interaction or dynamic over and over without any variance. This is why well socialised adult dogs are needed to teach pups how to relate to their own species and too much pup-pup play really isn't helpful - especially if there's a bully around. See this article I wrote: http://totallydogtraining.com/over-friendly-dog/
Thank you Jo for another very good explanation into these behaviours. I have minimised the puppy play with his siblings a little for these reasons as I had already read that article you wrote, thanks!
Thank you all for your replies and links to articles. Being new to this, The more information, the better. Thanks again!
