Back 6 million years ago, oh ok about 18 months ago when I took Rusty to puppy classes we taught "down" using a lure. (ie from a sit moving a treat downwards so he'd follow it and end up in the down position and get the reward. He took ages to half get it and so I did a lot of "good down" when he just happened to be in that position but it was never a "done deal". Then when we moved to gun dog training it simply never got used. For "lie down" generally I use " on the bed" as I want him in a specific place rather than care whether he sits/lies or washes. However there are a few occasions when a proper "down" would be useful. He knows the word but will only do it for a treat and instantly springs into sit again presumably in the hope of a repeat treat. Any tips on how I can build on what he does for a proper down so I can then do a "down stay"? ta Carole
Re: improving a "down" We don't use down much but we did move from luring Riley into separating the hand gesture from the treat and then gradually raising our hand so it doesn't need to go as close to the floor. The other thing that's helped is we do a separate sit and wait so we can reuse the wait for the down. Hope that makes sense
Re: improving a "down" Hi Carole Yes, years ago we did training classes too with the lured down only for the dog to spring back up. Like Barbara we had a second command but we used a stay rather than wait (which for us has a slightly different meaning). So it was down and stay, hand signals were hand moved palm down towards the floor (down) and then hand only lifted to show an outstretched hand fingers spread wide (stay). It did work but I don't really use down any more, sit is our 'default' instead. Hope that helps. Kerryn
Re: improving a "down" Hi Carole, it really is a question of building on what you have. I don't favour using a stay command at all. I build on the down in exactly the same way as I build on the sit. So focus all your efforts into getting a two second down. Use multiple downs in succession and start rewarding only those that are fractionally longer than the others. Work your way up to two seconds. Don't think about anything else until you can achieve that. Once you have the two second down, move on to focusing on a three second down. And so on. Once you have a ten second down, then you can start to introduce distractions. Move around the dog, literally one step at a time to begin with. Until you can walk all around him in either direction. Once you get to that point you will have it cracked and will know what to do. The way to 'two seconds' is lots of short sessions with a snappy reward marker and nice treats. Pippa
Re: improving a "down" Hi Pippa I'm curious [quote author=editor link=topic=819.msg4274#msg4274 date=1350672383] I don't favour using a stay command at all. [/quote] Does that mean you don't use "stay" at all? Kerryn
Re: improving a "down" I'm sure Pippa will add to this but quite a few people I know don't use any kind of stay. The sit means sit until you're told otherwise. We wanted to do this but Riley stays with my in-laws a lot and they weren't enforcing the sit until I say otherwise approach so we decided to introduce a stay or in our case we use wait and I've never tried to go back.
Re: improving a "down" I don't ever use the word stay, and I don't recommend anyone else does. Here is my logic: Sit means "sit and remain sitting until I tell you to get up" Down means "lie down and remain lying down until I tell you to get up" I think it is helpful to ask your self this - If sit and down do not have the meaning that I put in quotes, then what do they mean? Do they mean "sit and get up again immediately" or do they mean "sit and get up again if I leave you" or do they mean " sit and get up again after ten seconds" Or what? I think stay is a completely confusing (to people) and unnecessary (to the dog) command which implies that sit and down could mean any one of a number of things other than my meaning which is "sit until I tell you to get up again" That's my logic anyway! Pippa
Re: improving a "down" Hi Pippa Thanks for that, I knew some people didn't use stay but we've always used it, it's just part of our language and I find that it's essential which was why I wondered the reason behind not using it. It does make sense. For us "stay" means whatever position you're in stay there and don't move a muscle until you're given another direct command or released, so I use multiple commands, which the dog probably hears as one, such as "sit and stay". I also have a more vague "wait" meaning stay there until the door / gate is closed, I'm not sure how the variation arose over the years but it seems to work. "Sit" means bottom to floor and look at me for further instruction, if no further instuction follows then you're free to go. Quite complicated when you look at it. Whatever you use, I guess, as long as you're consistent in your commands it doesn't really matter. Unfortunately in our house certain people don't understand the release command (and don't use stay, thank goodness), yes, I know train the people not the dog but I reckon the dog is easier! Kerryn
Re: improving a "down" thanks everyone - interesting responses! I'm going to work on this next once I've cracked not jumping out of the car the minute I open the boot. Rusty was always good at this this on his own, where Barney would leap out so putting them in together created two dogs leaping out. I then started rewarding Barney when he slightly hesitated until he is now reliably waiting where Rusty was still jumping out and being puzzled as to why no treat for him. It's taken 3 weeks of missing out for him to work out that if he stays in the car he gets a treat too yay! Finally! We're working on proofing now before I move on to the next thing i.e. can we do this parked somewhere more exciting? Much more practical use than a "down" but we're going along to a group in Milton Keynes next week to find out more about competitive obedience so I'll definitely need a down. (Once again Pippa you've set me off on something!)
Re: improving a "down" The 'not leaping out of the car' thing is SO important... I've lifted Poppy back up into the car several times now, and made her wait until she got the command to get out!
Re: improving a "down" Ooh that sounds interesting. Hope you have a good time, and do tell all when you get back!
