Ok,so think I've either had an epiphany or you are all going to think I'm stupid,either way here I go..... After 2 walks with the clicker again due to Dexter getting lax and losing focus ,I've had my pleasant loose lead boy back on our local community circuits for the last 2 days .....last night was a perfect loose lead,well focused walk for 1 hr and 15 with the exception of one horrific cat lunge...but which actually was great as a practice opportunity ( yes,I like to torture myself!) Anyway,this morning we set off on an adventure( details to follow on My Walk) a totally new route ,dexters paws have never trod any part of it.....oh dear!! I set off not expecting a sniffing,/ pulling to sniff Fest but Dexter had other plans!!! Once I realised this I got the clicker out and we went right back to basics.....10 steps always seems to be our base line in new situations.....and we worked up pretty successfully...and eventually had a really nice walk that Dexter dealt with really well. What I've learned and realised today: At the age of 15 months I am still proofing loose lead walking in new situations......is this correct and normal? or am I doing some thing wrong. am I too reliant on the clicker? will I be doing this forever ? when will 'walk command' work just be enough..... Any advie or thought ,as always very much appreciated and greatly received Thankyou xxx
Re: Proofing Sorry that on that post the text has just gone craaaazy and I don't know how to fix it? ??? Sorry it's horrible to read :-[ x
Re: Proofing You've just got too many [/size] thingys. You just want one only after every bit of text that you want to resize As long as there are new situations there will always be opportunities to proof. It's a life-long thing, but it'd taper off as you stop encountering new stuff. On our recent trip to Melbourne, Obi saw his first train and his first turkeys (live ones). So we sat and waited and got a treat for sitting still. Your normal cue should be enough in situations in which Dexter has had plenty of practice. You would still occasionally mark and reward the desired behaviour though. Personally, I only use a clicker to teach or refine stuff. Then I switch to a verbal marker ('yes'). I stop using a marker for well learned behaviours (like stopping at a kerb) and just occasionally praise and reinforce with a treat. You can't really over-use a clicker. But you are best using it to extend, proof or refine behaviours, not using it for stuff he really knows well to the degree that it's automatic. For that I personally would switch to the occasional spot of praise and a treat. I never abandon rewards for any behaviour but for all behaviours rewards eventually become a less common event in 'same old, same old' situations.
Re: Proofing that is exactly what i do,......once i know we have mastered something i ease off with the c/t,......at the moment i am using it for heel walking and mat training,.........getting there with the mat and i am training the stop whistle its none stop training ;D
Re: Proofing Oh Rachael,sorry I didn't even want to resize anything..I didn't know what I'd pressed!sorry for making it horrible to read [quote author=Oberon link=topic=3830.msg43723#msg43723 date=1388467659] You can't really over-use a clicker. But you are best using it to extend, proof or refine behaviours, [/quote] Ok,that word 'extend' that's what in my head i think I was doing this morning ......Dexter wanted to abandon his 'walk' position which is basically walking at my left side with the lead loose...after about 10 steps.The desire to pull off to sniff overcame his self control to 'walk' I stop and say ah ah when he pulls and we don't continue until he gives me some slack on the lead,I say good,then 'walk' and off we go.as we were stopping so much I got the clicker out thinking I was using it to extend the amount of time he spent with the lead loose...it did work,but am Misusing my clicker?on my estate ,we walk and walk ,stopping only a handful of times if we spot a cat or he tries to pull to a dog....he's had a lot of practice at 'walk' and is good at it,so what am I doing wrong that this hasn't transferred to a new location today? :-[ I thought it was because there was an overwhelming amount of new smells but am I not directing him properly?...got myself confused here....and probably anyone reading this,sorry :-[ Thanks for the reply Rachael and Lynne ,go Jasper on his stop whistle xxx
Re: Proofing It wasn't hard to read in the slightest, so don't worry about that for a second It sounds like you are using the clicker just fine. Remember that it's just a marker - it just means 'what you did right there is good and I'm gonna give you a treat for it and therefore it'd be worth your while repeating it when the same situation arises again'. There is nothing wrong with communicating that to your dog as long as you are doing it in relation rom behaviours that you want to see repeated Your description of using it to increase 'loose lead time' is a great use of the clicker. You are shaping a lengthened loose lead walk. I wouldn't worry about once instance of failing to transition successfully to a more challenging situation. It doesn't mean you were doing anything wrong. Maybe the cat he wanted to chase was wearing Chanel today - who knows Next time, just work on maximising what you can control - quality of treats, distance from potential distractor, your personal fun factor, rate of delivery of reinforcement. Dogs can be REALLY specific. What worked when the wind was westerly, you were wearing red, your thumb was at 87 degrees, and the cars on the street were predominantly white may not work as well in a situation that is only slightly altered in your eyes. Ok, that's a huge exaggeration but you know what I mean. Dogs are very literal. Change anything and it's all different. That's why so much proofing is required to get a constistent response across situations.
Re: Proofing [quote author=Dexter link=topic=3830.msg43735#msg43735 date=1388482267] ....he's had a lot of practice at 'walk' and is good at it,so what am I doing wrong that this hasn't transferred to a new location today? :-[ I thought it was because there was an overwhelming amount of new smells but am I not directing him properly?...got myself confused here....and probably anyone reading this,sorry :-[ Thanks for the reply Rachael and Lynne ,go Jasper on his stop whistle xxx [/quote] This is exactly what Charlie is like. Now we are doing lead walks "for real" instead of just lead training, I've had to be hugely measured in what I ask for. Very recently, I changed (again : although I hope to stick to it now) what I was asking from Charlie on the lead. And I had to write down the streets he could do it on, and for how long. It was really down to 50m extending at a time "this walk we'll get to the school, next passed the school, then half way down Arthur road, we'll get down the road as far as Waitrose in the evening, then in the morning when it's busy". It's that slow for us. Your experience sounds absolutely normal to me. One thing that helped me, was reading this book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/My-Dog-Pull...YTO_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388485468&sr=1-1 It's not so much about Charlie pulling for us, but about Charlie getting excited and bouncing up and down (often with a slack lead unless I try to pull him away) focused on a fox or a dustbin or something, refusing to walk on. The techniques in the book transfer though. What was particularly helpful was tips about not stressing the dog with the stop/go, turn in circles thing. Charlie was getting frustrated and this book really helped me with that. I use the clicker in a different way as a result now - as a marker for turning (the technique is the same for pulling).
Re: Proofing I know this is going off the point a bit but I had to reproof scouts sit stay while I'm at distance last week. Stupidly I didn't know that recalling a dog from the stay too much can make his stay unsteady until I read Pippa's article about the patterned recall. Their sit stay had got very good (if I do say so myself) and I'd been training it with them both together to proof that. I started leaving them at the top of the garden hiding down the bottom then blowing my recall whistle. I thought good fun and good recall practise : A few days of doing this quite a lot scout started running after me when I got to a certain distance away. Thankfully I happened to read Pippa's article and realised what had happened. I went back to the beginning only moving short distances return C&T and gradually built it up again. It took a few days but we are now back to the point we were before. Very luckily Scott didn't bother to copy his brother he stayed sat until released even with scout running after me. ;D It's such a mine field so much to proof and so many ways of messing up. ???
Re: Proofing Glad you posted this Jen, big mistake here too as I do that ALL the time as I thought it was helping, oh no I can't keep up with the wrongs and rights of training so I must be getting so much wrong
Re: Proofing [quote author=charlie link=topic=3830.msg43787#msg43787 date=1388501140] Glad you posted this Jen, big mistake here too as I do that ALL the time as I thought it was helping, oh no I can't keep up with the wrongs and rights of training so I must be getting so much wrong [/quote] Your Charlie is steady on his sit though - so you haven't done anything wrong. Heidrun said so, so there, you were right. ;D ;D ;D http://www.thelabradorsite.com/forums/index.php/topic,2596.msg26121.html#msg26121
Re: Proofing Julie's right Helen if Charlie's sit is steady it should be fine. Like I said Scott didn't pick up the same problem. However perhaps you should read the patterned recall article. It explains a way of recalling from the sit without causing unsteadiness. Basically you do one recall in every three sit stays (I think that's right). It's also a stop whistle practise exercise although a bit advanced for me yet. : Jen Now I've read that back it sounds a bit bossy. . Didn't mean to what I ment was if you haven't read the article it's very helpful.
Re: Proofing Julie and Jen, thank you so much, goodness me Charlie and I have done something right, it takes me quite by surprise when we do ;D x
Re: Proofing I love these kinds of questions as I invariably learn something new, or it is addressing something I have thought of too. Sometimes I wonder if I'm using the clicker right also, so thanks for asking this Angela and all the input. There is always so much to learn and do, both for us and the dogs! But that's what makes it fun, right?? ;D
