I have just watched the news and seen people getting hot under the collar (excuse the pun!) about electronic devices in dog training. I have seen devices such as those which give the dog a mild shock and those which fire a citronella spray at the dog both of which were used as part of a lesson to correct a particular fault. They had an immediate effect and stopped the dog in its tracks but whether it was effective in the long run one will never know. Personally, I would not use them on my dog but I wonder whether they are any worse/better than giving the dog's ear a sharp pull to make him yelp which is another method I have seen used in training? Any views!!!!!! Roger
Re: Dog Training Devices I wouldn't give my dog a sharp pull, and would be horrified if anyone did anything that made him yelp. I wouldn't use citronella spray, a mild shock or anything else. Not a spray of water, a planned shock surprise or anything like at at all. I sometimes say "no, no" though. 8) I think, for pets, it's not necessary and has huge risks of unintended consequences. I also think inflicting pain or discomfort when it's not absolutely necessary, is just wrong. Maybe it's the right and necessary thing in some circumstances, for some dogs, but for the average pet...so what if positive methods take a bit longer?
Re: Dog Training Devices My boy Sam is a sensitive soul , even hating a raised voice ( even when its not meant for him ) I know for sure that he would go completely to pieces if he were to be hurt and that the lovely bond I have with him would be broken , trust lost that would be hard to regain, if at all . Kind patient methods for me every time , with a good pepering of tasty treats along the way
Re: Dog Training Devices Discussions on e-collars etc, often descend into chaos Let's see if we can keep this one 'on track' ;D One of the benefits of devices that administer a correction when the dog is remote from the handler, is that they enable a more accurate or timely punishment than 'chasing a dog down' or 'dragging it back' to the scene of the crime. Both common traditional training methods. One of the disadvantages of remote devices is that they enable the punisher to emotionally detach themselves from the act of punishment. It is easier to be cruel when you cannot really see the dog's true reaction. However, there are alternatives to using punishment of any kind, and many modern trainers use it rarely, if at all. This is often for 'ethical' or 'emotional' reasons, but there are practical reasons too. check out downsides of using punishment in dog training
Re: Dog Training Devices I think there are plenty of positive ways of training dogs and I would always want to try and use those. Having said that I have used the slip lead to check Riley when he's done things like try and chase a cat whilst on lead and he does get told off verbally which would I think be considered negative reinforcement. That is the extent of the negative aspects of our dog training thus far. I wouldn't be choosing between an electronic device and giving his ear a sharp pull as neither are acceptable to me - to address the original question
Re: Dog Training Devices It was suggested I might consider a collar (spray NOT shock) for Lilly at one point - on the premise that I might be able to break her focus in a chase (wildlife : ) enough to get her attention back to me and get her to recall. I wasn't convinced enough that it would work to give it a try. There is so much potential to use these things wrongly and significantly harm a dog. I am a bit more open minded about mild aversives though - lemon juice, rattles and such like. But I think you need to know how to use them correctly too. Its a bit of a minefield, and in many cases these are just short-cuts to doing it "properly".
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=editor link=topic=4153.msg49159#msg49159 date=1390417017] However, there are alternatives to using punishment of any kind, and many modern trainers use it rarely, if at all. This is often for 'ethical' or 'emotional' reasons, but there are practical reasons too. [/quote] That's good to hear. Ethical and emotional reasons are good reasons - maybe even better than practical ones. . Being humane, and having empathy, can make you feel good and that can make your life better.
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4153.msg49185#msg49185 date=1390421620] Being humane, and having empathy, can make you feel good and that can make your life better. [/quote] Bingo
Re: Dog Training Devices I understand that this is an emotive subject, have no wish to stir up a hornet's nest and like most respondents my dog is a domestic pet, a much loved member of the family and one on whom I would not wish to inflict pain and distress. It was interesting to hear that both experts interviewed on yesterday's News programme, a female dog psychologist and a male vet, supported the use of these devices as part of a structured dog training programme. It seems to me that owners of domestic pets are generally against the use of these devices on the grounds that they appear to inflict unnecessary pain and are therefore cruel but the owners of working dogs see them as an important aid for training purposes when used under the control of professionally qualified personnel. Of course individuals are free to choose how their domestic pets are trained but I would prefer to hear the advice given by such organisations as the British Veterinary Association and Kennel Club, before being swayed by anecdotal evidence. Roger
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=Morwenstow link=topic=4153.msg49286#msg49286 date=1390473960] It seems to me that owners of domestic pets are generally against the use of these devices on the grounds that they appear to inflict unnecessary pain and are therefore cruel but the owners of working dogs see them as an important aid for training purposes when used under the control of professionally qualified personnel. [/quote] I think that might be right, and if it is, I think that would be unsurprising. A pet is generally bought for the pleasure and company of keeping a dog, and that's about it. If, on the other hand, a dog is part of a working operation and there are economic factors at play - money, or safety is at stake - then you can see why people might make different decisions about the effectiveness and time to train a dog.
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4153.msg49294#msg49294 date=1390475562] [quote author=Morwenstow link=topic=4153.msg49286#msg49286 date=1390473960] It seems to me that owners of domestic pets are generally against the use of these devices on the grounds that they appear to inflict unnecessary pain and are therefore cruel but the owners of working dogs see them as an important aid for training purposes when used under the control of professionally qualified personnel. [/quote] I think that might be right, and if it is, I think that would be unsurprising. A pet is generally bought for the pleasure and company of keeping a dog, and that's about it. If, on the other hand, a dog is part of a working operation and there are economic factors at play - money, or safety is at stake - then you can see why people might make different decisions about the effectiveness and time to train a dog.[/quote] I suppose the discussion hinges on the definition of cruel and assume, perhaps naively that if the use of these devices which have been around for sometime, are deemed cruel, then they would have been outlawed a long time ago? Some people (me included) would consider the practice of castrating/spaying/docking and the use of choke chains, for reasons (other than medical grounds) of owners convenience, just as cruel. Indeed you could say my daily task of vacuuming the dog's hair, which terrifies him and sends him into a cupboard under the stairs, is a cruel practice? I am like you, against the use of pain as a training method but would just like to hear the other side of the argument. Roger PS. I know many owners who have dogs which are both working and family pets, not driven by financial greed.
Re: Dog Training Devices So there is a lady I see with a spaniel who pulls her off her feet regularly he's a really hard hunting dog. She's considering using a prong collar to regain control of him and while I would hope I wouldn't have got to that point in the first place I'm not sure I can blame her for trying the collar. Whether that's a permanent fix I have very strong doubts as he actually walks ok for the trainer in a slip lead. It's such a strong advert for training heelwork early and without a lead to start with.
Re: Dog Training Devices Good point This is what the Kennel Club have to say. They have been campaigning for an outright ban for some time. They describe e collars as 'barbaric' in the article linked. This is what the British Veterinary Association have to say. They too oppose the use of e-collars
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=Morwenstow link=topic=4153.msg49326#msg49326 date=1390480264] PS. I know many owners who have dogs which are both working and family pets, not driven by financial greed. [/quote] Just prompted by this to add to my previous post - for the avoidance of doubt. I see nothing wrong with dogs (or other animals) being part of economic activities to make money. Making money feeds our families and makes the world go round (mainly). My comment was acknowledging that some working dogs might be part of an enterprise where there are financial and time constraints, and it may not be possible to say "oh well, if it takes ages, or isn't perfect, that's ok".
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=editor link=topic=4153.msg49333#msg49333 date=1390481173] Good point This is what the Kennel Club have to say. They have been campaigning for an outright ban for some time. They describe e collars as 'barbaric' in the article linked. This is what the British Veterinary Association have to say. They too oppose the use of e-collars [/quote] Thank you, I am much better informed. Roger
Re: Dog Training Devices Electronic devices are banned in most states in Australia. At least the shock collars are. There is no doubt that they can work (it's just standard operant conditioning after all) but most people would not have a clue how to use them so the potential for abuse and misery is very high (repeated delivery of shocks etc.). Even in the hands of an expert, I just wouldn't want to subject my dog to a shock, no matter how mild. Must say I'm not even a fan of any device that physically restrains a dog by causing discomfort (e.g. by tightening when the dog pulls). I do agree though, Roger, that it's hard to come up with a satisfactory, universal definition of what's in or out on 'cruelty' grounds. I suppose that if we see that our dogs are fearful or in pain it's up to us to try to find a solution that helps to resolve that - e.g. a training solution that reduces the fear associated with an experience or a medical solution if that is appropriate.
Re: Dog Training Devices [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4153.msg49152#msg49152 date=1390415845] I sometimes say "no, no" though. 8) [/quote] Our equivalent : 'ah ah' ........the sum totally of Dexters correction! We've walked a long road with dog training using only positive reward based methods and my lack of experience but it's the right thing for us , I couldn't have used anything harsh on Dexter. His breeder put in the notes that travelled with him to 'tap him on the nose' to correct him ,I just couldn't though I guess if there is dangerous behavior going on then stronger action or correction have their place,happily in our case we've never had cause x
Re: Dog Training Devices I wouldn't nose-tap either. It can lead to escalation or a hand-shy dog. Or it can just really rev up the excitement levels. Best approach is to remove any 'self reward' that unwanted behaviour might be providing (eg. if your dog pulls, stop....if your dog jumps, turn around) and teach an incompatible behaviour (sit instead of jumping). Having said that, when training our dogs to be safe around our ducks we used a loud verbal reprimand in the event of duck chasing - the alternative being frightened or munched ducks (while primarily using the strategy of rewarding for calm behaviour).
