Wow, that is an awful lot of very different situations jumbled into one Calls for another thread I think But just at random, I am convinced that NOT docking a working spaniel is cruel. And castrating or spaying is not cruel, it is done under a general anaesthetic. It may or may not be appropriate, but 'cruelty' does not enter into it. Its a whole new discussion really so I'll split off this post
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? It is a very complicated discussion. Before I joined the forum I thought the majority of people we're in favour of neutering and spaying whatever the circumstances. Vets seem to push for it, although the main vet I saw didn't. I think it's individual for the dog. Factors such as health and behaviour should be the decider. As for docking I'm sat on the fence I'm afraid. I think a dog should have a tail to wag if possible. However I understand why it's better for some working dogs to be docked. Perhaps you could explain further Pippa why it's best for a working spaniel to be docked as some might not know. I don't know in detail. Jen
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? Well, speaking as one who has had three dogs in my lifetime, all of them males, all of them neutered - obviously I don't think it's cruel!! Now, keep in mind that I live in Canada where it is pretty much expected to neuter you pet unless you are going to breed them ,so perhaps I have some cultural bias creeping in here. But ultimately I think that, although I love my dog, and will try to give him the very best life possible, ultimately MY needs have to count for something, too. In the case of getting my dog neutered, well, in Simba's case, I had a dog who was completely deaf to any kind of recall, who did not trust us, who was aggressive towards us in some circumstances. Could I have waited for him to settle in before I had him neutered, see how things went? Perhaps, and if I were to do it again I probably WOULD have waited just a little bit longer. But I still would have had him neutered. I do not want to have to worry about a dog who goes crazy when there is a bitch in heat in the neighbourhood, who might have more aggression, who might try to escape at the drop of a hat. I know these are all "mights" but it's a risk I'm not willing to take. Call me cruel if you like but MY need to not worry about or have to manage these things outweighs the "right" of the dog to stay entire, in my mind. I have no regrets about my decision at all, but also do not condemn others who feel differently. I understand where they are coming from to a certain extent and I say hat's off to you if that is your choice.
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? Here you go Jen: Why we dock our working gundog puppies
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? Thank you Pippa. I feel rude now I didn't know you'd already done an article. Perhaps eventually I will have got though them all. : Those are the reasons I thought working dogs were docked for and I agree.
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? I don't believe docking working dogs tails is cruel. Having seen pictures of spaniels with red sides caused by the blood coming from their tails onto their bodies I think it's cruel not to dock them. I don't agree with docking for aesthetics at all and I particularly enjoy seeing our local Boxer toddling up the lane in front of his with the white tip of his long tail bobbing away Neutering and spaying I think should be done when circumstances or medical reasons dictate. I'm not anti either although we haven't had Riley done.
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? I'm now going to ask one of those daft questions but one that I've always wondered. I'm sorry for not knowing this are dogs tails docked the same way as lambs ? If so why aren't dogs castrated the same way as lambs and bullocks? It's a daft question I know because I can think of numerous reasons why its just I've always wondered why not? ???
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? I have decided that after Harley has her first season that she will be spayed. I don't think it's cruel personally. I have 2 male labs next door (one belongs to his mum and is only there a few times a week). The mum is going to breed from her dog when he is ready, so not getting neutered, my neighbours dog will be done when he is a bit older. For the sake of my pup, next door's pup and the visiting dog (1 year old), I feel it would be more cruel to not spay her as they play together most days, and we already know it is going to be difficult during her first season, it would be even harder to keep them apart going forward. Also, I do not want to breed from her ever.
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? Aesthetic docking (and the dreadful practice of ear trimming) is cruel, in my view, as it's pain for no gain to the dog. I can see the value in docking a working Spaniel - that is to prevent worse pain and injury. Neutering is not cruel as I really think it benefits the dog as they do not have to be restricted to avoid pregnancies. I don't think a blanket 'don't remove parts from your dog' really works...it's more complex than that.
Re: off-shoot from the e-collar thread: castrating/spaying/docking - are they cruel? I don't really have much of opinion on tail docking as don't have much experience with it. I've seen a couple of instances where a dog has had a to have its tail docked for medical reasons and one instance where a docking was done badly as a pup (according to the vet, again no personal experience) and the end of the tail was continuously infected as the dog kept chewing it, though to be fair it was partly kennel stress too. With regards to neutering I was always of the thought that it should be done as early as possible, because of working in rescue for so many years. But when I got Penny I wasn't sure what I wanted to do - having done my own research I have come to the decision that early neutering is not a good thing, I was still in two minds about when to Spey Penny; 6 months or later? The decision was taken out of my hands wen she was diagnosed with an inverted vulva, a condition that corrects itself after a season. This gave me time to think about my decision and I now believe that neutering should be done once the dog has fully matured and finished growing. I do not personally believe that either of these processes are cruel and I certainly would not put them in the same category as shock collars and choke chains. But I also would not put a choke chain in the same category as a shock collar. Fitted properly and used by someone who has had the training I think they can be an effective training tool (I personally wouldn't use one bu that's just because that style of training doesn't appeal to me) and really, are they much different to slip leads? Both can cause damage and distress to the dog if not fitted or used correctly. Shock collars have no place in do training. For one they do not 'train' the dog out of the problem, they simply may appear to manage it, whilst creating a fearful relationship between the dog and owner. I would also put prong collars into the same category as shocks collars - never should be used and they should be illegal.
