Ive been trying to educate myself about animal experimentation, and especialy the use of beagles. Its quite hard for me in a way because my brother died of cancer two years ago, and Im sure some of his treatments would have been tested on animals, and further research into cancer will involve testing on animals. However I have been reading that testing on animals isnt necessary and that it can be avoided and is ineffective. I try to buy cruelty free products, from Lush, and Im thinking of becoming vegetarian. My mum sends money to cancer research, and Im going to try and get her to support the local hospice instead. Its a really difficult issue. Otis started barking this afternoon, and i told him it was nice to hear him bark, because I was thinking of the beagles who were in cages in laboratories who had been debarked, so they didnt make a noise. Im going to carry on reading about it, but I would be really interested to know peoples opinions. Thanks, Maggie
Re: Your thoughts please well i havea13 m0the bka jc Val Eccles They still here she just straitened it after colour to see colour proper lol you fom it
Re: Your thoughts please Well, this is a tough one for sure. First of all, in my opinion, the rights of animals do not trump the rights of people. However, I certainly feel that live animal testing should only be done under humane circumstances, and only if there is no other way to test the procedure. It's so hard though, it really is depressing to read about lab animals, I try not to do it as it upsets me. :-\ And it's not only lab animals of course, I was reading about how rabbits can be "plucked" for their fur (angoras, that is) and how there is a stress free way to do it yet there are lots of places where the poor things are certainly treated very badly. And let's not get started about clothes we buy in the west for cheap on the backs of virtual slave labour in Bangladesh, China, or India. It's hard to know what to do about all this, for sure.
Re: Your thoughts please I do not think that live animals (well, apart from fruit flies and the like) should be used in experiments that involve pain or debilitation. Live tissue, yes, but not connected to a conscious brain or a brain that will wake up. But would I accept the use of a life-saving drug or procedure that had been developed based on live animal testing? I would. Yes, a hard one!
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=Oberon link=topic=4424.msg53761#msg53761 date=1392165274] But would I accept the use of a life-saving drug or procedure that had been developed based on live animal testing? I would. [/quote] I know!! There's the rub!
Re: Your thoughts please The tragedy is that so many of these experiments are totally unnecessary, for example transplanting the head of one dog onto the body of the other dog so that it has two heads, absolutely dreadful. There may be some obscure reason for doing this, but I hate it.
Re: Your thoughts please Most of the publicity used by anti vivisectionists is out dated rubbish from the occasional rogue operator. I don't know about the cosmetic industry. But I do know about medical research testing. To run trials and testing on animals a massive amount of paper work has to be completed and submitted to ethics committees. someone can't just decide to go and sick needles in a rats eye to see what happens. When the trials are under way the animals are better protected and cared for than most family pets. These trials are vital for understanding illness and developing drugs.
Re: Your thoughts please I actually know and have spoken to a person who did these experiments with the dogs' heads.
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=GreenBull link=topic=4424.msg53808#msg53808 date=1392199911] These trials are vital for understanding illness and developing drugs. [/quote] I support Greenbull's position. However, if you live in a democracy then you have to accept the right to protest but super glueing one self to the fence because you object to fracking does stick in my throat! Roger
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4424.msg53814#msg53814 date=1392201229] I actually know and have spoken to a person who did these experiments with the dogs' heads. [/quote] Did you ask them why it was done?
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=tartanmouse link=topic=4424.msg53828#msg53828 date=1392204230] [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4424.msg53814#msg53814 date=1392201229] I actually know and have spoken to a person who did these experiments with the dogs' heads. [/quote] Did you ask them why it was done? [/quote] They have to be licensed to do any kind of animal work. This work would have had to be licensed by the home office too so it was done for a very good reason. Or it was done illegally. On another note, Maggie comments on shopping at lush for beauty products. testing cosmetics on animals its now illegal in EU. So too is settling cosmetics that have been tested on animals elsewhere in the world.
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=Maggie68 link=topic=4424.msg53751#msg53751 date=1392157440] Im thinking of becoming vegetarian. [/quote] I was a vegetarian from the age of 11 until very recently. I did this when I was young, because I was distressed by animals dying. As time went on, and I read more and more, I came to think that the more important thing is the quality of life when the animal is alive, and whether the manner of death is humane, rather than the animal not dying. To live your life in a way that doesn't harm animals at all, is very, very difficult. But to make informed choices as a consumer, and actively support firms that produce animal products and who treat animals humanely (ie vote with your wallet), is practical and probably more effective.
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4424.msg53838#msg53838 date=1392206479] [quote author=Maggie68 link=topic=4424.msg53751#msg53751 date=1392157440] Im thinking of becoming vegetarian. [/quote] I was a vegetarian from the age of 11 until very recently. I did this when I was young, because I was distressed by animals dying. As time went on, and I read more and more, I came to think that the more important thing is the quality of life when the animal is alive, and whether the manner of death is humane, rather than the animal not dying. To live your life in a way that doesn't harm animals at all, is very, very difficult. But to make informed choices as a consumer, and actively support firms that produce animal products and who treat animals humanely (ie vote with your wallet), is practical and probably more effective. [/quote] Here here.
Re: Your thoughts please Thankyou, this is interesting. One of the reasons Ive decided to be vegetarian is because my brother died from bowel cancer, and meat is known to be a factor in the cause of bowel cancer, so a health reason. Also, I just think, if we can do without it quite well, then why should we ? I think an animal has as much right to life as I do. Just my personal opinion. As regards the animal testing, what really made me think it was cruel, was reading beagels are constantly caged and debarked, and Im sorry but debarking is definately cruel. Thanks for all your thoughts, Maggiex
Re: Your thoughts please I'm not sure where you are getting your reading material from Maggie but I do think that a lot of what is 'out there' for public consumption is glorified and exaggerated for shock value. I guess because that makes interesting reading. If you were to read the reams of paperwork actually needed for animal experimentation, I think I'd be bored after the second page! My personal belief regarding testing is pretty clear. If its been tested to make me pretty, smell nice, look good, taste tasty or clothe me, I disagree. If its been tested to provide the cure or treatment to prevent my child dying of cancer, then I agree. I just hope that in that instance, the animal is well cared for and it's done with as little pain or suffering as possible.
Re: Your thoughts please My cousin is a vegetarian, my father a died in the wool meat eater. My cousin often uses the "we don't need it" argument and my father points out that a lot of the animals you see in the fields wouldn't be born if there was no meat trade as the farmer is running a business. Maybe that's a better approach but I think I'm much more with ensuring I buy high welfare meat wherever possible and enjoying the sight of the spring lambs
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=Missy33 link=topic=4424.msg53854#msg53854 date=1392212276] I'm not sure where you are getting your reading material from Maggie but I do think that a lot of what is 'out there' for public consumption is glorified and exaggerated for shock value. I guess because that makes interesting reading. If you were to read the reams of paperwork actually needed for animal experimentation, I think I'd be bored after the second page! My personal belief regarding testing is pretty clear. If its been tested to make me pretty, smell nice, look good, taste tasty or clothe me, I disagree. If its been tested to provide the cure or treatment to prevent my child dying of cancer, then I agree. I just hope that in that instance, the animal is well cared for and it's done with as little pain or suffering as possible. [/quote] I agree. And it is worth remembering that a side effect of animal testing of drugs for human use is that those same drugs can then be used to treat sick animals too.....
Re: Your thoughts please [quote author=Maggie68 link=topic=4424.msg53853#msg53853 date=1392212197] Also, I just think, if we can do without it quite well, then why should we ? I think an animal has as much right to life as I do. Just my personal opinion. [/quote] Yes, I understand this - it's why I was a vegetarian all those years. I don't think this anymore, but I very much understand it. If meat production falls, there will be fewer farmed animals (but you are not actually saving a life that otherwise would be ended) and there is a great deal of benefits to some animals from non standard methods of meat production. If you want to live your life without consuming animal products, it requires a great deal of research and effort - the vegetarian society is an excellent place to start and has some great information about avoiding products that surprisingly contain animal products, the accreditation system is very good: http://www.vegsocapproved.com/corporate08/product_accreditation.asp If you want to go a step further, and take out leather and other products (apart from food) which also involves animal slaughter, the vegan society is good for information (although I prefer the policies of the vegetarian society) but you should try to do your own research too, as it's all a lot more difficult. Good luck with it.
Re: Your thoughts please So sorry about your brother Maggie terribly sad. Some of the studies which show a link between meat and cancer are confounded by the healthy user bias, others suggest that the problem is linked to meat subjected to high temperatures rather than meat per se. Mark Sissons has a good post on this Oncologist Peter Attia has some interesting articles on his website, including information on the chemistry of cancers which is very readable. Cancerous cells tend to be highly glucose dependent. Which suggests that a very low carb diet may help to prevent cancers ever starting. Not something you could achieve on a vegetarian diet. In fact he eats a very low carb diet himself. Which shows confidence in his research, if nothing else So there are people out there, scientists included, that think a ‘paleo’ diet (mainly fat and meat) will prevent cancer, and others that think a mainly vegetarian diet will do the same. I think the jury is probably still out on this one. The ethics thing is another story, not sure if I have time for that one - maybe later
