Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Hi Frankie, I am having problems with Harley pulling on the lead at the minute. Up until about 3/4 weeks ago she was brilliant.....but since then it is hit and miss. I have trained her to walk to heel, but something has changed! I hate using physical methods but will admit that I did give a sharp tug yesterday when nothing I did made a difference. It's not easy and I just wanted to say I know how you feel at the minute. Hopefully we can all support each other through the forum and maybe find new methods to try x

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Fwhitt246 link=topic=5047.msg63529#msg63529 date=1395772974]
I have been known to tell Murphy off about pulling when I am finally at the end of my tether by yanking him back and then really shouting no at him. But it only stops him for a few seconds and then he will carry on much like JulieT said.
[/quote]

Ah, Frankie, we've all felt like that, hugs, but this is another reason why it's best not to start down that route - very experienced people might feel and act differently. But it's no good getting to the end of your tether and doing the yank/shout thing (you know that ). No-one knows how safe it is or isn't to do that yank, and like you said, it had no real effect anyway.

If you feel in need of some support with this, you could try a few 121 lessons from a positive methods trainer? I'm definitely going to get some help when Charlie is well enough. Even a second pair of eyes to look at what we're doing is likely to be very, very, helpful.

You're really doing ok. You just took Murphy to a place with too many distractions - go back to your programme, and work out a plan, and it'll all be as right as rain. With a bit of hard work and time.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Thanks Naya and Julie

Yea i have been thinking for a while about having some 1:1s with a trainer who knows murphy well because she used to walk him, she is a trainer and behaviourist. I think i will ring her tomorrow

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Fwhitt246 link=topic=5047.msg63543#msg63543 date=1395774911]
Yea i have been thinking for a while about having some 1:1s with a trainer who knows murphy well because she used to walk him, she is a trainer and behaviourist. I think i will ring her tomorrow
[/quote]

That's a good idea - let us know how you get on. Share any good tips!

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Also I meant to say that the one time I got really annoyed and yanked and shouted at him I felt so bad I nearly cried and he have me these puppy dog eyes like saying "mum why are you being so mean " type thing!

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Don't worry, Frankie. I often threaten Obi with being made into a rug Sometimes they do frustrate the living daylights out of you. They are also incredibly forgiving, luckily

Couldn't agree more. Pulling (or any self-rewarding behaviour) can't be ignored. The rewards for pulling must be deliberately removed. I think that is the hard bit for people - refusing to be budged a step by your dog. Ever. If you really, truly make your dog go cold turkey on pulling it does work, without resorting to jerking or rough methods. I did it with Obi who, before we got him, could have pulled a locomotive up a hill. Switch away from a collar (or whatever they have learned to pull in) and go 100% cold turkey on pulling. Reward a voluntarily given loose lead. Walk with a loose lead and get the dog to make the choice of going nowhere (the result if they tighten the lead) or going forwards (the result if they loosen the lead). I know that people find it hard though and are then attracted to more forceful alternatives.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Frankie, me too, you have no idea how many times I have threatened to take Charlie back to the rescue centre and felt absolutely awful afterwards :'( we are all human and do the best we can for our dogs so no beating yourself up

We now use a front fastening harness and do as Rachael has said, it takes a heck of a long time but it is working and now Charlie can be walked on a flat collar sometimes when he is being a good boy : lots of good treats for loose lead and looking at me too. Keep going you will get there. xx

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=5047.msg63595#msg63595 date=1395782428]
Walk with a loose lead and get the dog to make the choice of going nowhere (the result if they tighten the lead) or going forwards (the result if they loosen the lead). I know that people find it hard though .....
[/quote]

Oh yes! The hard bit is that you have to not EVER be in a hurry to get anywhere, and prepare yourself to stop as many times as you need to. Works though if you stick at it, and isn't tiring as long as you're not in a rush and therefore stressed. This is my preferred strategy now.

I love a good agricultural show. Took Merla to the New Forest Show last year when she was tiny weeny and I could still pick her up. That was easy - not such a breeze this year I think ;D ;D. Also we went to the Dorchester show with her in September which is a really nice size, not too massive.

I was gutted not to get to the Game Fair but family stuff got in the way. Bath and West is half term though I think, so might get there. If so I will have VERY low expectations about how much stuff I'll get round! Just treat it as a training exercise, really.

In terms of steps in between I find garden centres and large pet superstores useful proofing venues, as long as you go without any other agenda (like actually buying anything!!!). I also find it really useful to get another person the other side of the dog. We call this manoeuvre the Merla Sandwich and it really seems to help. Maybe not choose your sister for this though eh? . Maybe if there's a few of us get to Bath and West we could meet up to form a rather chaotic support group? ;D ;D

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

The doggie Sandwich is a great idea We use that one too.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Quite depressing reading this.

I'm with Jules.

Train your dog.

If you can't seek help please........

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Tillydyes link=topic=5047.msg63658#msg63658 date=1395790110]
Quite depressing reading this.

I'm with Jules.

Train your dog.

If you can't seek help please........
[/quote]

Thank you so much for your concern. And so sorry you are depressed on behalf of me and my dog. But really, cheer up, we are fine, really quite fine.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Merla link=topic=5047.msg63622#msg63622 date=1395785606]
We call this manoeuvre the Merla Sandwich and it really seems to help. Maybe not choose your sister for this though eh? .
[/quote]

The sandwich really works for us too!

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Tillydyes link=topic=5047.msg63658#msg63658 date=1395790110]
Quite depressing reading this.

I'm with Jules.

Train your dog.

If you can't seek help please........
[/quote]

Positive training is training your dog. No-one, whatever approach they are comfortable with, is advocating not training your dog or letting it do whatever it likes

Both aversive methods and positive methods are based on the principles of operant conditioning.

Aversive methods tend to do more of the following:
- stop unwanted behaviour by adding an unpleasant consequence e.g. jerk on lead if dog lagging behind
- encourage wanted behaviour by removing an unpleasant consequence e.g. choke collar goes loose if dog heeling properly

Positive methods tend to do more of the following:
- stop unwanted behaviour by removing a pleasant consequence e.g. remove attention for jumping, stop forward progress if dog pulling
- encourage wanted behaviour by adding a pleasant consequence e.g. give a treat if dog sitting

Both require the same level of skill and training knowledge in order to get results. I just don't think we have the right to use the former. As Karen Pryor says it is outdated technology. Plus, you can train any animal and any behaviour using a positive approach. You can't say that of an aversive approach (try training a dolphin using aversives - it won't work. Try training a scared animal using aversives - it won't work). I think that says something about the value of the two different approaches.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

The main reason people struggle with heelwork, whatever method they use, is because they are not prepared to give up rehearsing mistakes. It takes a lot of commitment to doggedly refuse to move forwards if the dog is in front of us or the lead is not loose. Especially when we are busy and need to get from a to b

If the dog is on a lead he should be at heel. A dog cannot be expected to walk at heel for half a mile if he can't walk at heel for ten paces. He can't be expected to walk at heel in a crowd, if he can't walk to heel in an empty field. Yet this is what people do simply because they don't see 'taking' the dog with them' as training.

Positive reinforcement is most definitely an effective method of training heelwork, and the fastest way to succeed with this method is to focus totally on the dog for the duration of the training whenever he is on the lead. If he makes a mistake we can either raise the value of the reward or reduce the intensity of the distraction.

Whatever method we use, we need to try our utmost not to have the dog on a lead unless we are prepared to give him our full attention and to refrain from placing him in situations he is not ready for. Every time the dog is taken out and allowed to successfully help himself to rewards (attention,moving forwards, being petted by strangers) for pulling, we set our training back by weeks, and confuse the dog horribly.

It is this acceptance that 'every time the dog is attached to a lead he is being trained' that is the key to successful heelwork

Edited to add: that this all refers to dealing with an established problem, not to training heelwork from scratch, which I recommend you do without a lead.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I couldn't agree more but (and you knew there'd be a BUT didn't you ) we can't always control the environment we live in, or take the dog into, nor can we control the actions of strangers. It would be fantastic if every stranger asked before stroking our pup, or at least waited until it had four feet on the ground before doing so. It would be better still if everyone had a lovely quiet field to practise their off lead heelwork in and they had the opportunity to gradually build up the distractions, but real life isn't like that. Most people have busy lives, live in busy towns and don't have any land to themselves to train on. Many pups have to be walked on lead long before they are trained to walk off lead, else they just wouldn't be able to go out and socialise at all. You can only do what you can do and this is governed by the lives we lead and where we live them, so we have to sometimes use less than ideal methods to produce a well behaved dog.

In an ideal world I'd never use any negative punishments. I don't like knowing that for whatever reason I've got something a bit wrong and this is having a knock on effect with my dog's training/behaviour, but I can't control every single thing in my world, so I have to do whatever I find effective to make sure I have control over the dogs (and I often have 6 with me) and unfortunately using a system of negative consequences as well as positive rewards is what works (for me and for most people).

On the whole, the Good Cop/Bad Cop thing works for me because my dogs see the Good Cop far, FAR more often than the Bad Cop, but I don't think it does them any harm to know that Bad Cop is waiting in the wings if they deliberately ignore me, or act in a defiant or disrespectful way. And Bad Cop can come out if they get carried away/over excited and need reminding that although they have never been in the present situation before, the same rules still apply.

I'm all for moving with the times and keeping an open mind about new methods (I'm quite a Happy Clappy person really and I love a bit of Clicker Training and even HTM ) , but I realise that unless we can control everything and everyone, some methods have limitations, so I tend to stick with the more old fashioned ways, mixed in with the newer Positive methods, because they work even if I can't have that control over my environment.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63723#msg63723 date=1395826505]
that Bad Cop is waiting in the wings if they deliberately ignore me, or act in a defiant or disrespectful way.
[/quote]

This is interesting. I was mulling over some of the things that Jules said and trying to put my finger on why I disagreed with the general attitude and approach ( - it's ok to say that, I hope). This has helped clarify it for me.

I don't think my dog deliberately ignores me, or has any concept of defiance or disrespect. I think when my dog isn't behaving like I want him to, it's because he doesn't know what I want, or can't control himself enough to remember. I can't react with a punishment, I think it's just not fair, and likely to ruin my relationship with my dog (even if he is unaffected, I will be). I also don't think I'M IN CHARGE (in capitals, anyway, ). I like to think of it more as a partnership. When we get it right, I feel like we are a team. I can't beat up (verbally or physically) on my team mate.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

What Julie wrote is the way I see it too.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Of course it's ok to disagree . Life would be very boring if we all agreed on everything.

I think because I come from a background of mostly Terriers, Hounds and Poodles I've seen defiance much more than those who come from a Retriever background .

To me a dog needs to learn self control. A dog without self control is a bit of a loose cannon, so I am there to remind it to control itself if the circumstances momentarily overwhelm it, just like you do a child who is getting carried away with excitement at a family wedding, whether or not that child has been to a wedding before.

I guess if I had only the one dog, then it wouldn't matter so much, as I could just pop the dog on lead and hang on tight, but as I usually have 5 or 6 with me, I NEED to be in control all the time; it would be chaos if I wasn't. We've all seen what happens when you bump into that person who has more than one dog and no control over them; well I don't want to be that person . I simply couldn't manage if I had all my dogs wrapping me up like a maypole on lead, or dragging me here and there, and I'd be a nuisance to others if my dogs were simply running wild. To be a responsible multiple dog owner it isn't just desirable, it is necessary for me to be in control.

Ultimately I believe most dogs like a leader, and by that I don't mean a canine substitute Alpha Pack Leader, I mean someone who they can rely on, who is consistent, who shows them the rules and boundaries, and makes sure they abide by them. I don't think they are that far different to children in that respect really. When dogs feel they have to think for themselves, they all too often make the wrong decisions. So although I do have more of a partnership type relationship with my dogs when working them on a one to one basis, when they are all together, they know I'm in charge, and to be honest I think they feel more content because they know I'm in charge, as none of them want that responsibility themselves anyway. 8)

My dogs all vie for position the moment I sit down. They all want to be as close to me as possible, in fact I'm sure if I could WEAR a couple of them, they would be at their most happy...lol, so I don't think we have a bad relationship. If anything goes wrong/if they get scared, they all come running to me, because they know I'll put it right, or sort it out. They rely on me and I don't think they would be like that if I wasn't a good leader and if we didn't have a really good relationship.

So in total, I do believe we are a Team, but I'm not a Team Mate, I'm their Team Leader and they all seem more than happy with that, because someone has to Lead and they don't want to. 8)

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Well, I agree with all that too

Obviously humans and dogs have different roles in the team, whichever of the terms 'Team Mate' or 'Team Leader' appeals more. Personally I really like 'Team Facilitator'.... Just kiddin' ;D

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=5047.msg63821#msg63821 date=1395867046]

I don't think my dog deliberately ignores me, or has any concept of defiance or disrespect. I think when my dog isn't behaving like I want him to, it's because he doesn't know what I want, or can't control himself enough to remember. I can't react with a punishment, I think it's just not fair, and likely to ruin my relationship with my dog
[/quote]
Totally agree with this,Dexter can 'appear' to be behaving defiantly or even ignoring me but when I analyses it it's always because we are in a situation where his desire to do what he wants has totally overcome him ...most usually a new dog approaching on a lead,observing him you would say he's ignoring me but he just can't control himself and can only focus on what he he wants to do.......then the heavy artillery has to be brought in......roast chicken