Re: Question I posted on facebook site Well I'm guessing he has learnt how to behave at the vets. You have taught him how to behave at the vets. I think what you want is for Charlie to learn how to control himself with other dogs wherever he is ? The difference I think, it's a bit difficult not having actually seen what you do, is the method I've described the dog learns how to get what it wants with as little interference from you as possible. It basically teaches itself you just reward the dog for picking the right choice, staying calm, by allowing it to move nearer it's goal. At the vet he is constantly above threshold. Nothing you can do about that so you have done the right thing in that scenario but because he is at a high level of arousal although he is behaving he hasn't learnt CALM. Hope that makes sense. :
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=Jen link=topic=6934.msg94423#msg94423 date=1405167589] although he is behaving he hasn't learnt CALM. Hope that makes sense. : [/quote] I don't think it does, no (sorry! ). He hasn't generalised what he has learnt at the vet's to off lead dogs playing/working where he wants to do the same (but I'm not sure I would expect that). It certainly helped with other close proximity in similar situations though. I'm not sure I see the difference between a definition of calm (what do you mean? perhaps I'm not on the same page - not literally! ), and an ability to focus and respond to cues. (eg sit and wait in a vet's waiting room). He isn't doing so in some kind of state - if that's what you mean. Although sometimes he'll look inquisitive and wag his tail at a dog coming in the door and so on but I'm cool with that. Excitability with Charlie is like an on/off switch. There isn't much of a scale to it.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I think this is perhaps difficult to explain and getting a bit confusing because I don't know what Charlie can do. :-\ So he will be calm for you in the vets full of dogs but he hasn't learnt how to be calm when meeting dogs in other situation ? Is that loose or on lead ? What would Charlie do in the training set up I described ? Have you tried it in a controlled situation or has it always been real life where you haven't control of what the other dog does ? PS. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6934.msg94425#msg94425 date=1405168183] [quote author=Jen link=topic=6934.msg94423#msg94423 date=1405167589] although he is behaving he hasn't learnt CALM. Hope that makes sense. : [/quote] I don't think it does, no (sorry! ). He hasn't generalised what he has learnt at the vet's to off lead dogs playing/working where he wants to do the same (but I'm not sure I would expect that). It certainly helped with other close proximity in similar situations though. I'm not sure I see the difference between a definition of calm (what do you mean? perhaps I'm not on the same page - not literally! ), and an ability to focus and respond to cues. (eg sit and wait in a vet's waiting room). He isn't doing so in some kind of state - if that's what you mean. Although sometimes he'll look inquisitive and wag his tail at a dog coming in the door and so on but I'm cool with that. Excitability with Charlie is like an on/off switch. There isn't much of a scale to it. [/quote] I will try and explain what I mean. Taking the vets as an example as I don't know the the other situations. There will for most dogs be a level of stress in a vet waiting room however that may manifest. You have got Charlie to a point where he can sit and wait nicely and take treats at that level of stress so in other similar situations he will do the same. He isn't necessarily learning to calm he is learning to cope with that level of stress. It's that stress that is in the way of Charlie learning to calm himself when he meets a dog in a field. Learning to cope with that level of stress is an important step but now he needs to learn how to calm. I'm not sure that has helped. :-\
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I haven't responded to your second bit - I think you were typing and adding it as I wrote my first reply. There is only one main outstanding issue now - Charlie is on lead and other dogs are off lead - all other scenarios are pretty much fine (even off lead and off lead is fine, although I don't have 100% control, that's just a matter of proofing - he will obey his recall and stop whistle and "let's go", but won't stay at heel). The "problem" varies. The biggest challenge is more than one other dog off lead, very active, playing or retrieving. One, old, quiet dog, toddling along quietly sniffing - not really a problem. I've done the training exercises twice now with a stillish (but young, new and exciting) decoy dog (and the field was exciting). There isn't a point at which Charlie is uninterested in the dog (obviously, I can be out of the gate and across the road but that's where it starts to be impractical). Behaviour is an excited state and stays the same as we move towards the dog or walk in circles, or walk up and down at the same distance. If we move away from the dog, behaviour starts to be frustrated, lunging and resisting gets worse. At this point, the trainer wants me to just move close to the dog "and stop messing about you are frustrating the hell out of your dog", put Charlie in a sit and ignore him. (I would reward for any points of stillness and relaxation).
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I think I can guess the answer to this question. What would happen if for example you walked Charlie around the field perimeter and the decoy dog came in while you where at the furthest point possibly tossing treats about if he isn't busy sniffing in general ? I'm guessing he would immediately lock on tail wagging so C&T that response. As you've said you don't mind that response. The C&T should get his attention so C&T again because he is now looking at you and take a step nearer. He will lock on again before he has time to build up to more than a wag C&T. Repeat. If you can keep him at a low level of arousal (I'm guessing that won't be easy) for a few sessions he should learn that response just as at the vets he has learnt to sit and wait. It's going to be your trainer that gets frustrated not Charlie. ;D What would happen if you just walked straight up to the decoy ? Would he then greet politely or would it be over excited ? I'm sorry I should've asked this next question first. What is you end goal ? Do you want charlie to be able to greet these off lead dogs or just pass them without reacting too much ?
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=Jen link=topic=6934.msg94446#msg94446 date=1405180246] I think I can guess the answer to this question. What would happen if for example you walked Charlie around the field perimeter and the decoy dog came in while you where at the furthest point possibly tossing treats about if he isn't busy sniffing in general ? I'm guessing he would immediately lock on tail wagging so C&T that response. As you've said you don't mind that response. [/quote] This did happen (ie we were at the farthest point and the decoy dog came in) and he straight away got excited - but he was already pretty aroused because he could hear the dogs barking in the kennel and he was super interested in what was behind the fence. It was very exciting when a dog actually emerged from behind the fence. But, it's impractical to create the perfect scenario, it's been difficult enough getting what I've got. I think the trainer thinks this is all just because he expects to be allowed to go say hello, and go play, when we are outside and other dogs are off lead. It's plausible that he has got the message that he doesn't get to say hello to other on lead dogs. He has got the message in the vet's waiting room that this isn't playtime. But we've been away from off lead dogs (we avoided them as much as possible because they were unpredictable when he was injured) and in this scenario, he expects to be able to do what he did as a 8 month old puppy - run up and play. Maybe he will just calm down when he gets the message "no, you don't get to go play". Interestingly, Jo Laurans (the clicker trainer in Jersey) also answered my question on facebook and her view was I should send him to day care until playing with other dogs is "yawn, same old, same old". Or never let him play. One or the other.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I do think his unavoidable confinement and his age play a big part in his reaction to off lead dogs. I'm not sure if he would ever find playing with other dogs boring. Not for a few years anyway. If there is no way of finding a replacement behaviour you can reward I still think C&T for the lowest state of arousal could work. My only other suggestion would be to train a go play cue and a no play cue. If your trainer and you are happy for Charlie and her dog to interact/play off lead then you could use the opportunity to train a play cue. Then you can train a no play cue. My play cue is 'go race' my stop play cue is 'enough'.
