a crazy doer of a dog....

Discussion in 'Clicker Training' started by JulieT, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. FoxyLady

    FoxyLady Registered Users

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    is free shaping different to just shaping then? - I think I always try and set up the environment to reduce the possibilities! But I have seen "resurgence" - doing the front feet pivot (ie back feet moving round) at first I clicked for any back feet movement in either direction so sometimes I clicked my puppy for clockwise and then anti clockwise and even now sometimes when I get the pivot out I get a small shuffle to and fro before we start (it doesn't matter because the full circle is now on cue (almost !) and wasn't labelled until I was getting the full circle. That's really interesting though to keep in mind when training - thanks
     
  2. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    That's a good question....yes, I think there is a difference.

    Are we not always shaping in a way? Shaping a 1 second stay to a 10 minute stay? But free shaping - rewarding any approximation towards what we want is different.

    We watched Emily Larlham use luring to a degree I'd never even considered before. She practically lured an entire complex trick - dogs weaving and jumping over each other before she moved to marking.....
     
  3. FoxyLady

    FoxyLady Registered Users

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    So the clicker retrieve - where it starts with a nose touch on dummy and then a bit of mouth opening etc - that would be free shaping?

    So with the luring, did she lure it several times and then go on to shape it?
     
  4. Oberon

    Oberon Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Shaping versus free shaping....In my mind it's a bit of a continuum rather than a strict categorical difference.

    We are always shaping in our training - that's rewarding closer and closer approximations to a goal. If you want a 10 second sit and you're getting there by gradually expecting a slightly longer sit each time before you mark/click and reward, you are using shaping. If you're training a retrieve by starting with the initial step of touching a dummy, building up to a mouth hold, you're shaping.

    Free shaping is just shaping with less guidance or intervention from us humans. It's kind of waiting for the dog to do something in a totally voluntary way, then marking and rewarding it when it happens. An example would be teaching the down/drop by waiting for the dog to lie down in the house, then marking and rewarding.

    It's blurry though. If I want to teach my dog to sit on a mat and I do it by putting down a mat and waiting for the dog to move towards it, is that free shaping? After all, I gave a big hint by putting down a mat. That's why I see it as more of a continuum.

    If you're using luring to achieve more and more developed behaviours then you're shaping, but it's not free shaping (because you're strongly guiding the dog).

    I don't think we need to be too strict with definitions though :)

    It's very interesting that luring was used so extensively by trainers at the conference, while free shaping was not in favour. Definitely would not have predicted that! Having said that I realise, now that I think about it, that I do use luring more than I thought I did (though it doesn't lend itself to all behaviours obviously)...So if I wanted to teach 'play dead when I pretend to shoot you' I'd use luring for the whole thing (from lowering the head to lying on the side), turning the lure movement into the visual cue. But I'd definitely be clicking and treating each little step. Whereas from what you say Julie the trainers at the conference would not pull out the clicker till they got a fairly advanced behaviour established. Do they use no marker at all until that point, just well timed treat delivery? I assume that when the trainers were using luring they were delivering treats for partial behaviours (steps along the way....ie shaping)? If they do that but avoid the clicker till the behaviour is somewhat advanced then I wonder why. There is no real difference between food delivered with or without a marker - the food is just as reinforcing either way.
     
  5. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I can't claim to have understood completely, of course....there was so very much going on, and so very much to take in.

    Both Barbara and I noticed the complete absence of what we might think of a "clicker free shaping" (just made that up, hope you know what I mean though).

    Kay Laurence was the clearest on this - she absolutely had us with our clickers away until we had the behaviour we wanted.

    I'd say that they did place a greater emphasis on the click rather that just food though, yes (although can't actually remember feeding rather than luring now I think about it). But they were luring, and luring - without delivering food. And using targets extensively.

    I agree we are always shaping, yes. I would say though that I saw no "free" shaping at all at ClickerExpo, and I'd say not one trainer would think 101 things to do with a box was a good idea.
     
  6. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Emily Larlham actually asked if you could lure your dog for four minutes......FOUR MINUTES!!!!!!

    There were a few pots on the ends of sticks to really get that luring moving around :D
     
  7. Oberon

    Oberon Moderator Forum Supporter

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    I am amazed by that. Then how are they teaching the gorilla to have the injection or the hyaena to have its nethers examined (or whatever the zoo examples were)?

    And luring without ever delivering food? Where's the reward?
     
  8. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    There was a lot of targeting which I think was used to get the less domesticated animals to move into positions although Kay and Emily were probably amongst the most dog focussed over their careers within the presenters.

    I think Emily Larlham was trying to make a point that you shouldn't need a piece of food right under your dog's nose to lure it. She could lure her dogs at quite some distance and obviously built that up as with any other behaviour using the three Ds.
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Yes, the luring was a learned behaviour. Someone asked "why not use a target?" and she said that luring was more flexible, the dog followed her hand better and she got a better result, and more control over the dog's muscle movement. So the hand with food was just acting as a target (but better, in Emily's view).
     
  10. Oberon

    Oberon Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Very interesting. Thanks!
     

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