Aggression from neutered dogs to my intact 1 year old .... help!

I am increasingly concerned by entirely unprovoked aggression from neutered dogs towards my boy (still intact) Manny, who is approaching 1 year old in mid February. He is an exceedingly friendly and entirely non-aggressive dog; his slightly imbecilic enthusiasm as a younger puppy, where he would charge over to all and sundry and heap attention and energy, even where not entirely reciprocated, has now given way to a far more measured and sensible approach with what, seems to me, an appropriate level of 'decorum' and polite caution. However, over the last six weeks or so he has been receiving increasing levels of aggression, including bark, snapping and, on occasion, genuine attempts to bite him, from a range of dogs, virtually all of whom are neutered males. These 'aggressors' are from a range of breeds including the usual snappy terriers, but also (and quite often, distressingly, other Labradors or Lab mixes). Only yesterday a fairly small Lab-mix attempted to bite and managed to confess the 'release' buckle on Manny's Ezydog collar detaching it!

I have been advised that a younger intact dog may give off hormones/chemical scent etc that upsets neutered dogs which causes the aggression and that the only solution is to have Manny 'done'. Is this correct? Whilst I have certainly not ruled out having him castrated I shall be following the weight of advice and not been doing so until he is fully developed which, the consensus seems to be, is at least 18 months. Has anyone had any experience like ours and can you offer any guidance? I feel that there is something entirely wrong with a placid, friendly dog having to be altered because of the aggression of others: hardly a good advertisement for having a dog 'done'! I am also increasingly angered by the complacent attitude of the owners of these aggressive dogs ..... all advice very gratefully received. Thank you all.

 

That is absolutely infuriating for you. Your well-mannered, well-socialized dog being picked on - and you then some how getting the blame for it. There is increasing evidence that castration can actually increase aggression or other behavioral issues in male dogs.

I have to say, my husband and I have taken to carrying a stout walking stick when walking our dog, since she was badly bitten. It's not so much to ward off another dog (though I wouldn't hesitate to do that if necessary), it's more that other dog owners tend to call their dogs back more quickly when they see you have a stick!

 

Please don't feel that you need to have him castrated!
We had the same experience with Pongo. It was annoying and frustrating, and poor old Pongo was bewildered by the unprovoked aggression from dogs he just wanted to play with. BUT.... it passed. By the time he was 18 months it had virtually disappeared. I am sure it was due to his adolescence and hormones making him smell threatening to others (especially neutered males), and once he'd passed through that and his hormones settled down the issue went away.
And, in retrospect, it did teach him how to manage / avoid unpleasant encounters. That's not a lesson that I'd want to put him through "for fun", but it didn't leave any lasting scars on him and was perhaps not useless.
The most irritating thing was other people telling me I should have my dog neutered because of their dogs' behaviour. But I have learned as a dog-owner that you have to let such comments go and move on.... he is MY dog and it is ME who will decide what is best for him.
I'd say hang in there and wait - I think you will find it is just a phase.
Teenage is a cruel time for humans as well as dogs!
Rosie

 

Given Manny's age probably what you are encountering is the subject of this link, at the Puppy License to Misbehave section mid way down:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/dog-communication

AS the article states when dogs enter puberty, unlike many other mammals, dogs's testosterone soars to sometimes 7 times what it will be at puberty. At this stage any other dog might feel the young male needs to be put in his place, not just neutered males. This high testosterone level diminishes over the next months and by age two most male dogs do not reek of it so much. It should get better then.

HOwever some neutered males always have an antipathy towards intact males. My boy is 9 years old and a month ago we had a bad encounter with a neutered male. WE can't think of any other reason for it, other than a neutered male bothered by an intact male. The theory is the neutered ones are jealous. But I wonder if it's that to a neutered male an intact always smells more strongly of testosterone than he does so it's an extension of the puppy license phenomenon.

If you castrate Manny you will have to change his name. Kidding, do what you think is best for you and your dog. This should diminish but don't be surprised to find some neutered males still don't like him. All our puppy encounters were off leash in a big area where Oban was able to evade the aggressor dog, none of whom was very determimed. It is actually a bit harder now. Oban will alert to another intact male but he thinks most neutered males don't exist so every time we've met a nasty one of them it's been a complete surprise to both of us. And, sorry to say, usually to the other dog's owner as well.

 

Wow! Karen, Rosie, Snowshoe: thank you so very much for your prompt and incredibly helpful and supportive replies! This is the first time I have posted and I have to say to get such informative and reassuring, though realistic, responses is a massive help. In your own ways, you have all hit on aspects that have been very troubling and have provided excellent context for the issue and the strong reassurance that I (and Manny) are not alone with this somewhat under-reported (at least as far as I can tell) phenomenon. Rosie's point about the 'up-side' of this unpleasant process does ring true as Manny has certainly begun to temper his overly-gregarious tendencies and is now, undoubtedly, far more cautious than hitherto; having said that, I would be mortified if he became too deeply affected by these random encounters and became either overtly nervous, or - worse - proactively defensively aggressive himself. However, I'm confident that his inner 'Dude' (Big Lebowski reference anyone?) will continue to prevail and he will emerge from this, over time, settled and content.

I am certainly going to consider the robust stick suggestion Karen, as a facility of (absolutely) last resort for the next period of adolescent scent, so to speak, and as something of a deterrent for the more complacent and passive aggressive 'biter' owners. Having said that, my experience, as alluded to by Snowshoe, is that the majority of owners are indeed genuinely surprised and rather taken aback when their pooch reacts aggressively and out of character and are apologetic and quick to stick the offender on a lead; it is the minority who need to learn simple manners and respect.

By the way, Snowshoe, 'Manny' was named after the giant Woolly Mammoth in the Ice Age movies series by my daughter so any post-op name change would have to be handled carefully! !!

Thanks again to you all, and I look forward to seeing if the thread develops further .... I have to say all of this has nudged me much further towards keeping the lad in one piece for the foreseeable and perhaps for good; I shall be looking into the recent evidence as to the potential negative consequences of castration, from an aggression/behavioural perspective mentioned by Karen. To my admittedly limited knowledge, this remains a somewhat counter-intuitive and seriously under-reported aspect of what is frequently described as an obvious, responsible and common-sense course of action for the owners of male dogs to take. Much food for thought ....

 

We have had the same with Zaba - he's an intact male and will stay that way - but it has all stopped now he's three years old, I think the others are right. Surging hormones caused the other dog to get the wrong signals.

I found things were far better when he was off lead and could give the other dog clearer calming signals.


...

 

That's the best description of Pongo's behaviour that I've heard for a long time.

 

Yes. I've been surprised at how pervasive the "received wisdom" is on this, despite the fact that I think all recent reputable evidence is pretty clear.

Received wisdom from most of my family and friends who "know about dogs" is that of course they should be castrated, probably at about 12 - 18 months, and that if you don't do that then they will be aggressive, hard to train, and they will run off and abscond whenever there is a bitch within 5 miles; and that there are no health risks from castration (well, maybe they'll get a bit tubby, but that's not a big problem).

My (still very limited) understanding of the facts of the case are: There are no significant health benefits to castration, some significant health risks (especially if done young before growth is complete), and that getting overweight is in fact a very big deal and ought to be classed as a major health disbenefit. And (more importantly) castration only has an effect on behaviour in some dogs, not a majority. So it should be an action of last resort to address behavioural issues if they arise (e.g. absconding), and ideally tested with reversible chemical castration first to check that the problem behaviour really is being driven by high testosterone levels.

I have to say it is thanks to this forum that I became aware there was even a debate about it! And when I did my own research the answers were very clear.

 

I found the support invaluable it's good to know there is another way and your not on your own. My boy is uncastrated at 3 and is a better dog for it.

 

I'd add just one word of caution (although I'm quite sure you are aware of it already). I know that Pongo is very sensitive to my reactions to situations - he takes his lead from me in many ways. So, if you see a dog approaching that you think might be a problem, and if you give off any hint that you are concerned, then your boy is much, much more likely to get nervous; and that will definitely interfere with his "thinking" in giving off the right signals of calm / non-threatening / I-am-a-nice-harmless-chap; so the situation may escalate.

In fact, it is more likely that your dog becomes nervous (or defensive) because of your behaviours than because the actual situation he is in. So.....carry a big stick by all means, but don't give any signal that you might want to use it, and if you see a dog then make sure your own internal monologue is about "this is fine, very calm, what a lovely dog, let's ignore him, he is fine....", because I guarantee your pup will read you like a book.

I'm sorry, I'm sure all that is entirely unnecessary because you are well on top of it! But I thought I'd drop it in just in case useful.

 

No, you are absolutely right to mention the point Rosie: thank you. Manny does indeed read me like an open book: his 'tell' are those ears - just so expressive .... and I am conscious that, as my annoyance and irritation increases with dynamically aggressive dogs inevitably I am going to be 'on guard' and I'm sure that will feed into his response; at the moment that response has been to be more wary and watchful than of old (not a bad thing necessarily) but I agree that if I'm, even sub-consciously, more 'front foot' about things that could have consequences, some of which might not be helpful .... I might just rely on the plastic tennis ball 'flinger' thing while I contemplate this a bit more!

 

Just chiming in from the other side. My boy is neutered, and yes, I have seen him be aggressive towards intact males. Which is odd because he is not aggressive towards other dogs generally. Where I live (Canada) most dogs are on leash most of the time, but I have come across this at the dog park. And it's pretty hard to prevent as it's pretty hard to tell if a dog is casterated or not from a distance and 99% of dogs here are casterated so in general you assume that they all are. It is weird but the testosterone smell theory does make sense. But I certainly apologize if Simba growls or snaps or whatever at another dog and certainly don't blame the other owner!

 

Thanks for the contribution Lisa. Here in South London/Kent we are off lead a lot of the time and, as I've previously indicated, most owners respond as you do, which is great: stuff happens and the combinations of intact and neutered appears to be destined to cause ructions particularly for the 'pre-teen/adolescent' Lab with the peaking testosterone (as I'm learning today). It's all about knowledge, information sharing and mutual respect - and that's just the dogs!! If we humans can keep up then things will work out I'm sure, whichever choice we make as owners! Many thanks again.

 

It can really vary still,dog by dog. I met with a friend from the other board when she was trialling near me. WE knew her neutered male was not fond of intact males so we were watching the action carefully. They briefly sniffed noses and for the rest of the walk ignored each other. It was off leash so they had plenty of space to separate themselves. Maybe they caught the vibes from us that, though we had never met each other before, the other lady and I were friends so the dogs had better darn well behave themselves.

 

I'm late to the discussion, but big thanks to you all for sharing your experiences and advice on this thread. We've got a fabulous, sociable, happy-go-lucky pup approaching 7 months old, and his daycare has mentioned a couple of times that she's suprised he's not exhibiting 'dominance' behaviour. I've just realised in talking to her this morning that she means humping, and whilst he does it at home he's not branched out elsewhere. I'm pleased to have found your thread on other dogs' potential behaviours because as his testosterone levels rise, other dogs changing behaviour towards him would have come as a bit of a shock otherwise I know it's not inevitable and we're careful with keeping our attitudes relaxed when we're out, but useful to be aware of.

It also helps with putting the whole 'neuter/don't neuter' discussions and decisions into context, as I'd assumed day care was all about the entire dogs' behaviour changing - whereas it may be that it's a combination of neutered/young entire dogs that may become difficult to manage. Thank you!

 

Despite it being widely reported all over the internet that an adolescent male dog has 3, 5, 7 (take you pick) times the testosterone as an adult....I am not at all sure this is true.

I'm not sure this is about testosterone in the adolescent male - my understanding (and happy to be corrected because I haven't looked this up recently so I'm remembering) is that although there is a surge in testosterone production in the adolescent male, it is just to reach adult levels, not to exceed them.

I do recall this study though, without looking back in detail: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22015156. And this does say: testosterone concentrations increased (P < 0.0001) dramatically from prepubertal to pubertal ages, and then plateau.

I think this is more about neutered dogs tending to be reactive to intact dogs (and there are loads of reasons for that) and an adolescent male not knowing how to deal with it.

Certainly, my experience was the same and what happened was my adolescent male grew into a big, strapping confident dog who developed the confidence to look back with a 'don't try it mate' glare and that was the end of that.

I think it's about a teenager getting bullied, and then the teenagers grow up a bit and learn to look out for themselves a bit better.

 

For what it's worth Inky was attacked again on Monday. He was on the lead actually sitting quietly next to me while I was talking to another lab owner who had her lab on a lead too - diorrheoa from eating rubbish on the beach. It was her other dog who went for Inky who just looked bemused. The damage was a flap of skin on his jowls which the vet nurse managed to glue back together. Only good thing was they removed the stitches from his ear (from 2 weeks ago)
To give the other owner her due, she was mortified and said if she ever saw me again, she'd put him on a lead! she also mentioned that Inky was entire and black!
Back to the vet today and now on antibiotics!

 

@Inky lab Poor little Inky I hope he is OK xx

 

Oh no poor Inky!

 

Oh no, oh poor Inky @Inky lab , he does seem to have more than his fair share of mishaps, on top of his other problem. I really hope he recovers soon.