I need some help. Some support. Some guidance, encouragement, something. Even if you can't offer any advice, I just need someone to tell me that things will get better. I don't know what's happened but the last week or two have been terrible. It all started in rally class last week, I couldn't get Penny to focus at all and she was mouthing off at all the dogs for nearly the whole entire session. I'm worried that if I didn't know the trainer personally I would have been kicked out of the class. For two months now we've been working really hard on loose lead walking. Not necessarily proper heel work but at least not pulling on the lead. We were doing so well and had had a massive improvement. Obviously we would have off days, but not like at the moment. Now it's like she's totally gone deaf. She doesn't listen to me whilst we're walking, her ears don't even twitch. I've tried being stern, gentle, excitable , nothing. When the lead does go slack she gets a click... No response. Previously she would be on me for a treat instantaneously. Now she doesn't even look at me and if I shove the treat in front of her nose... Nothing! Last week she started having accidents in the house again. And not even while we were out. Thankfully I seem to have got that back under control but still. I just don't know what to do and I feel helpless. It's really upsetting, I feel like I've failed. I've worked with problem rescue dogs for 7 years and worked alongside dozens of behaviourists. I have exhausted my knowledge. I've used various types of harnesses and headcollars, stopping each time she pulls, clicker training. I can't think of anything else I can do and I am on the verge of giving up and letting her pull my bloody arm out its socket. I can't take this much longer. Tonight I really snapped and gave her a few harsh tugs on her lead. She'd stop and look at me with confused sad eyes and now I want to cry. I know she doesn't know what I'm asking of her. I know it's my fault I'm not communicating with her correct but I don't know what else to do. Someone please help.
Re: At the end of my tether Oh, hugs, hugs, hugs! We've all had those days/weeks! So sorry to hear you are down about it all. I don't think 2 months is a long time to work at loose lead. It takes ages and ages. And ages again to proof. So although it seems like a long haul, and it can get you down, I don't think you should feel out of the ordinary at all.
Re: At the end of my tether So sorry Lauren that you are feeling so awful, but as Julie says, two months isnt long to expect good results . My Sam walks beautifully ( most of the time ) but for some considerable time he was a shocker .I remember coming home from one walk and crying , how pathetic is that ? I just felt that he wasnt getting it at all, but persisted and eventually , that wonderful day arrived when he didnt pull all the time , then he hardly pulled at all not long after that but it took ages . Labs are very eager dogs , Lets go, Come on , Quicker , Lets get there etc . and its just pure exhuberance that makes them pull . Practice the method of stopping and changing direction , thats the method that ( eventually ) worked for us . Try not to stress because they do pick up on it and react accordingly . Good luck Lauren , hugs for you
Re: At the end of my tether Sending you big hugs {{hugs}} I have been going through the same with Harley over the past month! Do you think it's something to do with red fox labs at the minute, or the weather......I don't know tbh ??? ??? If you ever want to meet up, let me know. You can meet Harley and you will realise you are not alone xx
Re: At the end of my tether Things fall apart sometimes in dog training. There are so many factors we can't really control. I find the best thing to do when you feel out of control is to go back to basics. Make a training plan as if you were starting over with a young puppy or a new rescue dog. And work through it from the most basic level. You usually find that this boosts the dog's confidence, your confidence, and you actually regain the ground you have lost quite quickly. It also helps to focus on one skill alone for a little while. You are not alone. Even the most experience trainers find themselves stalling occasionally. Don't panic
Re: At the end of my tether [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4827.msg59955#msg59955 date=1394475220] For two months now we've been working really hard on loose lead walking. Not necessarily proper heel work but at least not pulling on the lead. We were doing so well and had had a massive improvement. Obviously we would have off days, but not like at the moment. Now it's like she's totally gone deaf. She doesn't listen to me whilst we're walking, her ears don't even twitch. I've tried being stern, gentle, excitable , nothing. When the lead does go slack she gets a click... No response. [/quote] So now you've had hugs...(few more {hugs}).... Charlie went back to being a maniac on the lead just after he had his injury (he is not a dog that does restriction well). We were appalling. Charlie has a range of "charming" behaviours on lead, pulling is only one of his techniques (and not the worst). Jumping up and down and refusing to walk in the direction I want to go is one. Sticking his head in a bush/bin/doorway and gluing his paws and bum to the floor is another. Lunging backwards in the direction we've just been, sufficient to trip me up (after lulling me into a false sense of security by walking nicely for a bit) is a horrid habit.... I set aside a whole month (Christmas) for the initial attempt. We went out, and changed direction on the first pull (I was following Turid Rugass so had done the relevant preparation) and walked up and down outside my house. After 15 mins, back inside (with an upset Charlie). And hour later, out again. Same again. And again, and again. Eventually, we walked down the street - but not until mid Jan, I reckon. Then repeated on the next street, again, and again. Then the next street. Then we fell apart trying to walk across the park. So we stopped, went back to the streets, eventually conquered the park...Then we fell apart on the common.... By the end of Feb - so 2 months, we can only walk round familiar streets without misbehaving. Anything more, and we are still very much "in training" and definitely not walking forwards at least 50% of the time is spent dealing with dreadful behaviour. But it's getting a bit quicker to do new areas. Not very much though!
Re: At the end of my tether Hi Lauren, I feel for you I really do as I am constantly at the end of my tether with my rescue Charlie now 3 years old, so much so I was at the point of giving up. I decided to concentrate of 2 things which are recall and loose lead walking (not bothered if it's to heel). We have worked endlessly on lead walking which doesn't come easy to Charlie but he is much better now as we do all thing techniques suggested and he is getting the message. I too went to Agility and obedience classes with Charlie but he barked and lunged his way through and I decided it just wasn't for him or me, the stress was to much and he was picking up on my anxiety. When I get to the point you are at now I take a couple of weeks off training and now I just have 'FUN' with Charlie throwing a ball around and relaxing. We recently plucked up the courage to go to a new trainer as we have had 2 bad experiences with gundog trainers and she has given us the confidence to make a change to Charlie's life and we are seeing results after only 1 week (FINGERS CROSSED : I wonder has anything changed at home to cause Penny to wee in the house? Could you ask a friend to go on a walk with you and take over when you are feeling stressed? Could Penny maybe in a little pain with her hips? Remember Lauren we don't always get things right all of the time and sometimes life gets in the way. Please don't be hard on yourself, Penny is still a very young girl and I wouldn't mind betting if you have a break Penny will be able to concentrate. Don't overwhelm yourself with lots of different training, just go for a walk around your local park nothing taxing and relax. Please take care of yourself and keep posting to let us know how you are getting on I will be thinking of you xx
Re: At the end of my tether Lauren, I hope that you've opened the wine and drawn some deep breaths... You are most definitely not alone and it will all be alright. You have had a lot to contend with recently, what with the concern about Penny's hips and the wait for diagnosis, alongside which you are getting on with all the normal stuff as well as planning a wedding. Don't be hard on either yourself or Penny. I think Helen hit the nail on the head when she said: When I get to the point you are at now I take a couple of weeks off training and now I just have 'FUN' with Charlie throwing a ball around and relaxing. Training and fun aren't actually mutually exclusive, but when other stresses get in the way and things start going wrong, then training stops being any fun at all and it no longer works for either of you. You need a breather and to both get your confidence back - just as Pippa says, return to the basics. That might not be what you feel you need or what you want to work on, but if you revisit a sit and can praise Penny up for working well, it will help you rediscover your confidence in each other and getting things right. These current behaviours will not last - it is a phase and it will pass. Thinking of you, Clare
Re: At the end of my tether Thank you everyone, so much, for all your replies. I'm feeling a bit more grounded now but still fairly despondent. I think one of the things we are struggling with is training walks... We were doing so well at just walking the streets that maybe i reintroduced going to the park too soon? The trouble is she's the sort of dog that goes mad if she doesn't get an off lead run at least every other day. I don't like the idea of driving her to the field and letting her straight out without walking on lead - partly because it's a stupid short distance to the field we use (cross the street, round the corner and past ten houses) and also I read somewhere dogs should be given the chance to 'warm up' before off lead exercise eg. Walking to the park. Letting them out of the car straight to run can increase incidence of cruciate rupture. We will go back to street walking only for the rest of the week and see how she goes. How can I get her more responsive to the clicker when out and about? In the house she is flawless, but lately as soon as we leave the house everything just shuts down and all she's bothered about is getting to the park, even if we are not going there. It'll take about half the walk for her to realise and then she will start to focus on me. It doesn't matter what treats I use either, the reaction is the same. Part of what brought me to tears today was that I was overly tired (spent the whole weekend at crufts and it was very busy!) and the fact that the weather was pretty good and I thought we would enjoy a lovely stroll in the big park which we haven't been to for months because of it being wet and dark, but it all got ruined by our walk there. Am I doing the right thing training wise? When we are walking and the lead is loose she gets clicked and treated at short intervals. If she pulls and the lead goes tight we stop, usually for about 3-5 seconds, sometimes I make her sit, other times I just stand and ignore her. Then we set off again. If she pulls straight away we stop again. If she walks nicely she gets clicked and treated. Is there something I can be doing better? I'm so determined to get this to work. I don't want to use the gentle leader anymore as she has started to pull against it even more which I have been advised could be causing tension in her neck and shoulders and transferring down to her already sensitive hips.
Re: At the end of my tether Well, for what they are worth (maybe not much) my thoughts are: [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4827.msg60019#msg60019 date=1394487928] I think one of the things we are struggling with is training walks... We were doing so well at just walking the streets that maybe i reintroduced going to the park too soon? [/quote] Maybe, yes. I tried the park after doing well on the streets. Hopeless. I had to take it in tiny, tiny, chunks. I drove to the park. Then walked for 5 minutes in it. Then 10. Then walked round and round it on a lead. Then I tried walking passed the entrance...and so on. [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4827.msg60019#msg60019 date=1394487928] The trouble is she's the sort of dog that goes mad if she doesn't get an off lead run at least every other day. I don't like the idea of driving her to the field and letting her straight out without walking on lead - partly because it's a stupid short distance to the field we use (cross the street, round the corner and past ten houses) and also I read somewhere dogs should be given the chance to 'warm up' before off lead exercise eg. Walking to the park. Letting them out of the car straight to run can increase incidence of cruciate rupture. [/quote] Driving a short distance doesn't matter. What matters is your dog and you enjoying your walks - eventually. Don't let her out of the car to run. Let her out of the car to walk on a lead. Or if it's a really short distance, warm her up first, then drive her. [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4827.msg60019#msg60019 date=1394487928] How can I get her more responsive to the clicker when out and about? In the house she is flawless, but lately as soon as we leave the house everything just shuts down and all she's bothered about is getting to the park, even if we are not going there. [/quote] Higher value treats - the only thing that will stop Charlie, on a lead, at the common, with another dog to get to, is a tupperware tub of sardines. If the only thing she wants is the park, and the only thing you want is her attention, not one step in the direction of the park until you have her attention? [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4827.msg60019#msg60019 date=1394487928] When we are walking and the lead is loose she gets clicked and treated at short intervals. If she pulls and the lead goes tight we stop, usually for about 3-5 seconds, sometimes I make her sit, other times I just stand and ignore her. Then we set off again. If she pulls straight away we stop again. If she walks nicely she gets clicked and treated. Is there something I can be doing better? [/quote] For me, I used the clicker for lead walking in quite precise ways. Rapid fire C&T for walking nicely if any progress is difficult - avoid the pull, stop, C&T - pull, stop, C&T - then walking nicely passed distractions (again, progress difficult). Then for increasing the steps for walking nicely, but after about 30 I think it becomes random and more of a "good boy" click, and I think you may as well just treat. I would turn and walk in the opposite direction when she pulls - this is a form of punishment though, so I think you have to be alert to the stress on the dog. Do try Turid Rugass - it is simple stuff, but she sets out a plan of attack very clearly, and covers most of the points you are wondering about.
Re: At the end of my tether So sorry you are struggling with this, Penny, but as you can see, you certainly don't have to struggle alone! Everyone has given you good tips, here. The only thing that jumped out at me was the fact that she is pulling to go to the park. Part of the solution, I think, is doing as you've said and taking her on walks which do not end up at the park. It's hard to use the clicker outside, sometimes, I have found that too. I've only been able to do limited clicker work outside as it has been so cold here but now that it's finally warming up I've been thinking I would use higher value treats to engage his attention. But I know what you mean about Penny going deaf to it, I've experienced that too. Hang in there, don't be too discouraged. It will all start to come together, just take it a day at a time and celebrate the small victories, just to stay positive!
Re: At the end of my tether Ah Lauren,I'm sorry .....Kate says once she cried.......I cried SEVERAL times and I mean wailing,bubbling,snotty crying!I too was at then end of my tether,getting short on patience and just plain miserable. I went back to basics and started training loose lead walking from scratch using Pippa's articles and advice on here and a front fastening harness and gentle leader head collar.Dont feel daft driving to walk areas.I was driving 2 blocks at one point to get to a park.I've just looked back in my notes now and that was July.......by October when he had his tail operation we had made satisfactory progress to survive a month of lead walking...thank goodness.So that was 4 months to become 'satisfactory'.....I stuck with it and by December I'd say we were 'competent' and so changed to a back fastening harness.Gradually from then I managed short periods on each walk on the flat collar and lead in proofed areas and areas of low excitement,now we actually do quite well although Dex still wears his harness and if I feel like his bloods up in an exciting situation ( other dogs on leads,cat scents) I'll swap him over onto his harness because even now he will still pull.It gives me some more control and stops him pulling his neck...I can't bear that I am struggling with other dogs on leads big time at the moment..... So,I am a pulling survivor and can tell you that 2 months,certainly in my case ,isn't enough time to properly train a jubilant ,seasoned puller ??? Keep at it are true words,not something we just say to keep your pecker up you will get there eventually with persistence and consistency,don't lose your confidence xxx Also,just thought,if she has been motivated by food before you should be able to get that attention again by getting a bit creative,Chocolate Charlie was being served roast beef at one point ;D and I've used hot juicy roast chicken for Dexter......even cat meat sachets could be something to think about. Good luck and let us know how you are doing,hope you feel a bit better today xxxx
Re: At the end of my tether [quote author=Dexter link=topic=4827.msg60046#msg60046 date=1394511027] Chocolate Charlie was being served roast beef at one point ;D [/quote] This is quite true. Last summer, I went through tons of roast beef. We'd always driven to off lead areas, and done our lead training in fields or on the beach - trot round a field at our gundog lesson? No probs. We were the bee's knees at walking, I thought. Then I went on holiday and tried to walk Charlie through the streets of a seaside town - complete with squashed chips, dropped ice cream and so on. I could not get his nose off the ground! He would not walk forwards! "Here" ended up meaning put your nose in my hand and get a large chunk of roast beef ("peanut sized" cubes would not do). I struggled badly until the streets got cleaned, then slowly things improved. I still sometimes wonder where I go after roast beef and sardines - I was honestly considering fois gras at one point!
Re: At the end of my tether Sorry to hear about this Lauren, but keep the faith. You will get there. We have all struggled at times with training - it goes in phases I find. Hang on in there. x
Re: At the end of my tether Yep, there is lead walking and then there's extreme lead walking - anywhere where the distractions are edible and the ears of passing strangers are at an accessible level really ramps up the difficulty! ;D ;D I discovered to my cost years ago that only having your dogs used to their usual walks can be a recipe for disaster - there I was, with all these fabulous walks on my doorstep, and we went and did something stupid like move house. With Brew, I could pop her in the car and drive for five minutes and walk off leash every day, but I am trying to keep the walks very mixed so that wherever we end up next house move, we can cope with it. Look at all the routes you could possibly take to your local park and take as many twisty and convoluted routes to get there as you can - Penny should not be able to assume which route you are taking or even that every walk will end up in the park. If Penny isn't sure of where you are going, you have removed that pull-target from her. We take some crazy figures of eight with added wiggles in the hope that it won't be too predictable. We do this within one of our usual parks too, because I don't want Brew to think she knows where we are going and she can do it without me off leash. The other advantage about crazy loops through residential areas on lead is that you can stay close to home, so that if it is all going to pot, you are never that far from home to get yourself back out of an unsatisfactory situation. If it fits into your day, two short walks will be better for keeping concentration than one longer one. Intersperse the lead walks with off-lead exercise that you can drive to, but varying routine too. I'd swear though that my dogs know exactly where we are going by my choice of footwear ;D ;D There will be good walks, even better ones and ones you just want to forget and should forget. As Julie says, premium treats really can go premium levels. Um, just wondering, would they issue a 'My Waitrose' card to a Labrador?? Penny and Charlie should apply, they have after all got names that won't immediately attract suspicion... Clare
Re: At the end of my tether We had a much more positive walk this morning. We just walked around the streets in a loop and she was very good. Concentrated on me well, fairly responsive. She even isn't bark and lunge when we saw two small dogs on the other side of the road. It's so strange how you can a totally terrible day one day and a not so bad one the next. Well definately be exploring the local streets more now. Although I like I be careful where I go because if you go to the end of my road and cross over then you're in the bad neighbourhood so I mostly try and walk in the opposite direction. Think I'll give it a week or so just walking around the residential streets, then I may try walking the road that leads to the park but just walking straight past. Clare - I'm pretty sure Penny knows that when I put my Wellies on we go to the park, if it's my trainers it's just around the block. Should really maybe wear my Wellies for every walk so she can't tell but I try and avoid wearing them when possible due to my foot issues.
Re: At the end of my tether Glad you had a better walk today Lauren, sometimes just a step back can help make things clearer. My dogs definitely know what clothes and footwear mean walk, especially Hattie who waits at the bottom of the stairs and when I appear in my non dog walking clothes she looks sooo disappointed. Their not daft
Re: At the end of my tether Glad today was better We all have the 'it's all gone to pieces' experience now and then... Very discouraging but it passes. Some days I don't feel like working either
Re: At the end of my tether Today's walks went well again, she was concentrating really well and really responsive. I guess I was really expecting too much too soon. I need to make sure I'm not putting her into situations where she can fail, if her only choice is to get it right I think it will go a lot quicker. However... We now seem to have another issue to work with... We were walkin along on the pavement quite happily, click treat click treat etc when suddenly a cyclist zooms up behind us out of no where and scares the crap out of poor Penny! So gave a bit of a lunge and a bark to see him off and we carry on our way. Stupid cyclists! Should have been on the road! Now my dog has more issues to work on, she was already a bit wary of zoomy things goin past her and now this! She doesn't like people jogging or running past her and she hates kids on those stupid little micro scooters they all seem to have now. We live by a school so that is either a blessing or a curse. We can either see it as a training opportunity or a total nightmare as parents seem to think it's ok to let their kids hare around the street on this stupid scooters before school. Grrrrrrrrr!!!
