Had a really bad lead part of the walk today. So Charlie doesn't pull. His bad habits are: Lags behind and or refuses to walk forward (usually at the start of the walk when he is still in shock at having a harness or collar put on) - he does this regardless of what he is wearing. Stops for a sniff and won't move forward even with a handful of chicken und his nose. Lunges towards other dogs / stops dead and waits for other dogs if they are coming up behind us (we get overtaken as are slow with all the stopping). I usually have only some or one of these on a walk. This morning, all of them, constantly. All lead walking is still with a clicker and treats for being in the right position, and almost always on a harness. He often ignores the clicker if only kibble is offered, preferring to keep looking forward rather than turn to get his treat. He is no better or worse in different locations. Any tips? Should I massively up the treats? (There is a limit due to food intake restrictions...) He still doesn't associate his harness, collar, lead etc with going for a walk, and we have a big circus to get dressed to leave the house.
Re: Bad lead walking today He really doesn't sound like he's enjoying these outings, does he. What is his behaviour like on off-lead walks?
Re: Bad lead walking today Only one of our regular walks is on lead to an off lead area - the other walks are a drive to an off lead area and we walk on lead for about 100m only to get to the car. Generally, he is pretty good off lead - we can get him passed other dogs (usually with the aid of a game of football, a run at heel, or a retrieve) and he will recall away from other dogs. He will dash up to people from time to time if I'm not quick enough but comes back on his recall signal. He'll walk and run at heel forever without distractions, not so reliable with distractions (better running at heel, than walking - as running is more interesting). It's true, he really seems to hate the lead. Perhaps I've gone over board with the off lead stuff. I reckon we've spent over 90% or more of our time off lead.
Re: Bad lead walking today The other thing that he does is this: sometimes he has to move (eg we're in the road and a car is coming) and so I have to physically move him. If I go to pick him up or put my hand on his bum to push him to the side of the road, he'll shy away as though I might do something unpleasant to him - he hates being picked up outside, doesn't care inside.
Re: Bad lead walking today [quote author=JulieT link=topic=2356.msg22545#msg22545 date=1377433298] Only one of our regular walks is on lead to an off lead area - the other walks are a drive to an off lead area and we walk on lead for about 100m only to get to the car.[/quote] Could that be behind the issue, Julie? He associates the lead/harness/collar with being taken back to the car, and thus the end of a fun outing?
Re: Bad lead walking today Karen - I think that's nearly right. He is never particularly reluctant to have his lead put on at the end of the walk to go home - although that's often not necessary as he walks back to the car off lead now. But he is very reluctant to get out of the car when we get home. I think that he just doesn't associate the lead with a walk at all, so it is just a nasty constraining thing. I think he associates the car stopping with his walk, by which time he has forgotten about putting on his harness and the very short lead walk to the car. Routine is: harness and lead on, lead walk to car, drive, stop, off lead, back in car, drive, stop, lead walk to house. He is happy when the car stops at his off lead spot. Miserable to leave the house in the first place (i must be the only dog walker who has to bribe her dog out of the front door with a sea biscuit) and get out of the car when we get home.
Re: Bad lead walking today Sounds like Charlie just doesnt want the fun stuff to end ;D I had this with Sam when he was about six months old , messing about when time to go home , hating the lead being put on . What I did was when off lead , I would call him up, put his lead on for just a few mins , then take it off again , did this a couple of times during an off lead romp so that he didnt necessarily associate the lead with the end of the fun, bit of a roulette wheel but it worked x
Re: Bad lead walking today Hi Julie, if you are doing Total Recall you will find that doing what Kate did with Sam is part of some of the exercises later on in the training. We are doing this with Charlie and we also have been doing this on our walks so that he doesn't associate on lead as a bad thing especially after recall. Nothing to lose by giving it a go. Helen x
Re: Bad lead walking today No, no, I have no problem at the end of an off lead walk - or getting his lead on him half way through an off lead walk - the worst problem is getting his lead on him to leave the house in the first place.
Re: Bad lead walking today Oh sorry Julie, should have read your thread properly : Now that's odd. A mere novice here, but I wouldn't make a huge fuss leaving the house, lead on and out the door you go . We sometimes have a problem with Charlie NOT wanting to get into the car, now it's "Charlie in" in a firm voice, no fussing at all, and in he goes most of the time but he is getting better. It has been said on this forum before that we can induce and prolong anxiety in our dogs in certain situations with the tone of our voice and the actions we take with certain issues. Sorry I hope that sounds positive and helpful. Helen x
Re: Bad lead walking today He won't move through the front door - if I just went off I would have to physically drag him on his harness over the threshold. My main tactic is to leave, walk round the corner, and he'll sometimes then come with me when I return...
Re: Bad lead walking today OK, did something perhaps frighten him when leaving the house at some point? H x
Re: Bad lead walking today I thought that too - I suspected the puppy walker who took him out one day, but she says not and I do trust her. But discounted this as he does the same thing in Cornwall as London. He hasn't had any frights with me, and when he is on his slip lead (never used for walks, only to go out to wee or sit on the front patio) there is no problem, he trots out off the front door as happy as larry. I think that maybe I've taken drive to off lead exercise too far, and he just does not associate the harness or collar and lead with walks - and hates them as he sees nothing positive about them. Could that be it? Then I need to NOT drive to off lead areas for a while? But, if I put his lead on while we're on the beach etc. there is no problem. Mad furry minds!
Re: Bad lead walking today How about putting his lead on and just going into the garden for a little play and maybe go out the back door and eventually move to going through the front door. Charlie may just associate the lead/harness with more fun things and hopefully this will result in a positive result toward walks. I think your right it's a good idea to leave the driving to off lead areas for a while and work on the walks. What do you think? Helen x
Re: Bad lead walking today I think so, yes. I'll have to do it - such a circus to put a collar, harness, lead, on that I tend to avoid it and use the slip lead for garden visits. I'll have to bite the bullet and invest the time. Plus do more "start from home" walks, rather than "drive to" walks. At least he doesn't pull! ;D have to look on the bright side!
Re: Bad lead walking today So we are getting back to normal and things are improving - no more refusing to walk at all...but... I'm struggling with keeping him moving forwards consistently though on roads and pavements - he stops to sniff at every bush, bit of wall, patch on the road, cigarette butt - he didn't used to do this so much. I'm just stood there ready with my clicker ready to reward nose up, jiggling his lead and saying let's go Charlie (let's go works fine off lead). I can hold chicken under his nose and he won't stop sniffing! I have resorted to just pulling him away from whatever a couple of times. Is this bad? Or does it get to the stage of him ignoring "let's go" (he does know this means come with me, he obeys off lead) that I have to make him move on? I click and treat walking forwards, nose up - every 10 steps once we are motoring (I go down to two if we are struggling), sometimes can get up to 30...not often. I use kibble if we are doing well, chicken if we are struggling. Any tips gratefully received...
Re: Bad lead walking today [quote author=JulieT link=topic=2356.msg22932#msg22932 date=1377619149] Any tips gratefully received... [/quote] Go and see a reputable dog trainer as this problem will not be sorted out on an internet forum or your use of a clicker from what you are describing. That's being brutally honest and I know you won't like my reply
Re: Bad lead walking today Hi there Tillydyes, you are right, I don't like your reply - but because it is rude, not because you think I need professional advice. If you think I do, it would have been helpful (and polite) to explain why.
Re: Bad lead walking today Hi Julie, I spent about 30mins typing out a reply that would try to make sense without sounding like I was being rude before I decided it would be better to just actually answer your request on "Any tips gratefully received" in the way I did. No one else seams interested in helping you, saying keep at it it will come eventually does not fit here either. It's a common topic on heel work, one that is fraught with misunderstanding between dog and handler that leads to the problems that you are having. One that rears it's head when the puppy starts to lose its dependance on you when it reaches the stage in development at around the age yours is. I'm sorry if you feel I was being rude, that's not my intention. I know you are trying to get things right but doing the same thing wrong over and over just causes more problems and leaves the dog confused and that is what seams to be happening with your puppy with reading your posts. I do know that you care about the pup and his training but sometimes you have to face the fact that what you are doing is not working and need professional help or change what you are doing (upping the treat value is not going to help in this case). Most dog owners live with what they have and end up with a lifetime of 'I'll just put up with it' attitude and a dog that is not happy even though the owners think the dog is. You seam to want to do better than that. 'hats off to you'. There are quite a few things that are going wrong in my opinion, just based on what you have posted and it would be impossible to actually type out my thoughts on them all. If you want a few examples I will give you them though..... Why go through the circus act to put a collar, harness, lead on when the slip lead works? Why even use a harness?, You already admit this is stressful, well it's stressful to the puppy too. So that's starting off with a stressful pup. Why stop when the dog stops to sniff, that's allowing him/her to do what 'they' want, walk on....its your walk not theirs but please diversify do not walk in straight lines keep the pup guessing. Why try to lure the pup with kibble/chicken when it is not rewarding enough. Fillet steak is not the next step....don't give the pup options as that is what they will take.... You said [quote author=JulieT link=topic=2356.msg22932#msg22932 date=1377619149] So we are getting back to normal and things are improving - no more refusing to walk at all...but... I'm struggling with keeping him moving forwards consistently though on roads and pavements... [/quote] That's the same thing as refusing to walk....... A professional will help you, a forum of peoples opinions will not. I wish you and your pup well
Re: Bad lead walking today I do suspect that the harness is shutting him down a bit. I agree that it'd be worth trying to walk just with the slip lead. Or, if you are worried that he might hurt his neck if he lunges at something with the slip lead (a fair concern in my view), what about just trying a wide, flat collar? I am a big fan of harnesses. But maybe they are just not Charlie's thing? As far as pulling him away from things goes, well, I pull Obi away from things that I don't want him to get/sniff (usually this is cat poo. Appalling.). I do let him sniff at many things (I think that not letting a dog sniff on a walk is like asking a person to visit an art gallery with a blindfold on, but that's just my view ) but I will pull him away when he has sniffed for what I consider to be long enough. I do preface this with a 'let's go' and then I keep walking and he gets pulled if he ignores this.
