My lab who is now 8, has been having these episodes since he was 5 I believe. I initially thought is was heat exhaustion or maybe from eating something like the fruit from the Bradford Pear trees. I have taken him to the vet on numerous occasions and they have sent blood away to be tested. The vets have said EIC(exercise Induced Collapse), to Epilepsy. Thing maybe happens twice a year, sometimes in the morning, it is very random, and happens even after not having exercised. It lasts a maybe 10(usually 5 min or less) min tops, where he is actually able to respond to my voice and can focus on things so it is not Epilepsy. He seems to be having severe muscle contractions. The vets are pretty clueless really as to what it is. Have any of your labs had something like this?
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. I also have a video(sorry for the bad quality, I was holding the phone at the same time I was trying to calm my dog https://vimeo.com/28813614
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. I can't help, have no experience of this. So sorry, but just wanted to say I'm sorry you and your boy go through this. Really hoping you find some answers. Best wishes.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. No problem. I forgot to mention that as soon as the episode is over he gets up and is ready to play\go outside like nothing ever happened.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Sorry you and your dog are having the distress of this Owen. I am not a vet, but I have medical training, and wonder why your vet feels this is NOT epilepsy? I guess that he seems to respond during the attack, and recovers quickly afterwards, but all the same....... I know there are forum members who have had dogs with epilepsy, and some with veterinary experience so I hope they might be able to help.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Unfortunately I cant see your video , but I have experienced seizures in dogs , they do vary vastly but in most cases , my dog would recover quickly, just a little confusion . Most of the time, she was completely normal , playing , eating and behaving like nothing was wrong at all .
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Hi, I saw you video and I found it very upsetting so goodness know how you must feel :'( If your vet is clueless I would consult with a different one to get a diagnosis as there is obviously something wrong. Let us know how you get on. Good luck with your very lovely boy. Helen x
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Hi again , I have now managed to access your video . I am not a Vet and it must be a Vet who diagnoses, but given my experience of owning a seizure dog , this looks like seizure to me . Because there are different types of the illness , the symptoms vary greatly from milder Partial Seizures where the dog regains consciousness at all times and recovers well , to the more serious Grand Mal where the dog will lose consciousness . If if is Idiopathic Epilepsy ( where there is no medical reason for the seizures to start ) then this usually starts before a dog is about six years of age and can just begin for no reason, with no trigger . There are drugs , my dog had Phenobarbitol which she had to have twice a day for life, they suppress the seizures . The dog can live a normal happy life, its more distressing to us than to the dog , my own dog suffered partial seizures and would never lost consciousness . I do think you should maybe consider another Vet , I guess it depends on how often this happens ? Most Vets will prescribe medication if the seizures are regular , I wish you luck and all the best to yourr lovely dog too .
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. My now nine year old labrador has been having "episodes" for seven years now. They average about 10 minutes but he has had a few extreme ones that have lasted for best part of two hours. He is fully conscious and responsive throughout, and once the episode is over he immediately reverts back to normal. This is a link to a video clip of an episode in 2008 and two taken in 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdifQO2qevg The condition was diagnosed at the Animal Health Trust as paroxysmal dyskinesia which is thought to be a movement disorder rather than a true seizure. If you think it is similar to what you are seeing in your dog please feel free to contact me. I note that you mention that Exercise Induced Collapse has been mentioned as a possible reason for your dog's collapse - this can very easily be ruled out by a simple DNA test (University of Minnesota) - but I would mention that dogs with EIC do not normally experience muscle spasms (the limbs are usually floppy). Researchers at Minnesota are also now looking at "atypical collapse in labrador retrievers".
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Hi Owen, welcome to the forum, and very sorry that you have not had a diagnosis and some reassurance after three years of this problem. I am not a vet and cannot help you in that sense, but we do have a vet on the forum and I hope she will be able to advise you. What I will say is that if this was my dog, I would be seeking a second opinion (and a third if necessary) until I found a vet that was able to help, or at least to confirm that there is nothing more that you could be doing. Best wishes, Pippa
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Hi Owen, I've looked at your video and am not really sure what to make of it. If you were one of my clients I would be advising a referral to an experienced veterinary neurologist, and take your video clip with you to show them. If you go and see someone, let us know what they think!
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. [quote author=editor link=topic=3916.msg45059#msg45059 date=1389033601] Hi Owen, welcome to the forum, and very sorry that you have not had a diagnosis and some reassurance after three years of this problem. I am not a vet and cannot help you in that sense, but we do have a vet on the forum and I hope she will be able to advise you. What I will say is that if this was my dog, I would be seeking a second opinion (and a third if necessary) until I found a vet that was able to help, or at least to confirm that there is nothing more that you could be doing. Best wishes, Pippa [/quote] @ Pippa\Lochan - I actually went to I believe 4 different vets in town and they all gave conflicting answers. Initially when it happened I would rush him to the vet, sometimes during emergency hours and he would not have the symptoms by the time I got there. I just sit with him and keep him calm until the episode is over. I would never want to give him meds like Prednisone because those are not good for the dog long term.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Hi Owenh, I think the reason you are getting conflicting advice from different vets is because what you describe and what can be seen in the video do not lead to an obvious common diagnosis. This is not your fault but it makes your vets lives very difficult! For example, I have owned a dog who had both EIC AND epilepsy but from your video and description I could not diagnose which, if either, are present in your dog. Hence my advice to see a neurology specialist rather than GP vets - a board-certified neurologist is much more likely to give you a good plan of how to investigate to decide what is wrong with him. Hope this helps.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. [quote author=Lochan link=topic=3916.msg45252#msg45252 date=1389111610] Hi Owenh, I think the reason you are getting conflicting advice from different vets is because what you describe and what can be seen in the video do not lead to an obvious common diagnosis. This is not your fault but it makes your vets lives very difficult! For example, I have owned a dog who had both EIC AND epilepsy but from your video and description I could not diagnose which, if either, are present in your dog. Hence my advice to see a neurology specialist rather than GP vets - a board-certified neurologist is much more likely to give you a good plan of how to investigate to decide what is wrong with him. Hope this helps. [/quote] I will look into a neurologist as suggested. Maybe they will be able to figure out what is happening.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Just curious, Lochan, but are EEGs possible in dogs? This is certainly something that can confirm epilepsy in humans with "funny turns" of not entirely typical epileptiform activity. That and a CT or MRI to exclude a structural defect. Human neurologists often make diagnoses on really good detailed histories from witnesses, so as much good quality video footage I guess would help too Owen.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=3916.msg45310#msg45310 date=1389122638] Just curious, Lochan, but are EEGs possible in dogs? This is certainly something that can confirm epilepsy in humans with "funny turns" of not entirely typical epileptiform activity. That and a CT or MRI to exclude a structural defect. Human neurologists often make diagnoses on really good detailed histories from witnesses, so as much good quality video footage I guess would help too Owen. [/quote] Sure, I could better footage with my Nikon D800 on a tripod instead of the Iphone 5 shaky cam. Of course I am hoping that it does not happen again. It only happened twice last year that these episodes occurred.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. .......and of course you are otherwise occupied at the time. Hoping you don't have recourse to grab the cam again too xx
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. EEG' s are possible in dogs but are difficult to interpret an are only available from neurologists. CT and MRI are pretty routine though and would be easily accessed in most areas of the UK. Collapsing episodes are difficult to diagnose in a lot of dogs because we Don't have the luxury of paramedics rushing to houses with instant access to blood glucose, sats, ecg etc. As owenh says, many collapsing dogs are completely normal on presentation to a first opinion vet. As a houseman I did a cardiology rotation in a university vet hospital and we frequently used to send students to the local park with ecg, blood tubes etc and get them to run the dogs about until either patient or student went wobbly....very helpful to determine if the collapse was cardio-respiratory in origin though. Even in my own dog when she first developed symptoms of EIC I still had to ecg and blood sample her at the onset of an episode on the field to help with the diagnosis, as even a trained witness will find differential diagnosis of episodic weakness or collapse difficult with only a history and physical examination. This problem is obviously magnified when the witness is a very (understandably) worried owner, and if the signalment is unusual - in this case the reported age of onset, clinical signs etc would not be entirely consistent with idiopathic epilepsy or EIC. I have a friend who is an nhs paediatrician and we frequently compare notes as both dealing with non-verbal patients with anxious parents/owners! Anyway, I'm diverting off point here for the OP and I do hope he finds someone to help him.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. "funny turns" are terribly complex for humans - I can't imagine how much this would be multiplied for our furry friends. Hats off to our vets. Just relaying to Sophie what you did to vet students - she says she's up for it Hope you manage to find some specialist help Owen.
Re: Black lab has seizure-like episodes.............. Also you could tell Sophie that we once had a dog in kennels with human scabies. Twas incredibly difficult to find mites on him on a scraping so to give us an idea of when we could stop treating him we used to send a student in to play with him every day and see if the student had itchy bites afterwards.....abuse of innocent vet students I hear you cry....couldn't do it now, banned under elf and safety I imagine....
