Ive been considering trying temporary chemical castration on my dogs to see if it would help with their highly strung behaviour. I'm reluctant to go for permanent castration because of the chance it could make their nervousness worse. The APBC do recommend suprelorin to test the effect of castration on behaviour. I just found Lizi Angel's web site www.caninemind.co.uk. I was looking for information about castration and it's effect, if any, on a dogs reactivity levels and her blog article about castration and it's effects on male health and behaviour came up. It was very interesting as it explained castration only removes testosterone which will only stop dogs being interested in mating and possibly scent marking. All other behaviours are effected by another hormone AVP and serotonin and removing the testosterone can effect them. It gets a bit complicated for me to explain but it does explain why castration doesn't necessarily affect behaviour especially nervous behaviour. :-\ Another blog article I found interesting was 'my dog is fear aggressive'. In it she explains why fear aggression isn't actually possible. Fear and aggression can't occur at the same time but submission and aggression can. I'm no nearer to finding the solution but it's an interesting view. I'd be interested to know what you think, if any of you have the time.
Re: Canine mind I have a question. I can understand your reluctance to fill your dogs system with chemicals. I have followed your trials and tribulations on this website since I joined a year ago. My question is. Why not try the chemical castration on just one of the boys, leaving the other natural would give you a control to compare the effects against. I do appreciate that there may be good reasons against only treating one dog. On a personal note, and ostensibly not germain. My just 8 year old Grandson has been put on Ritalin to 'help' him at school and indeed he does seem like a quieter child. But my reservations are. It caused sleep difficulties and headaches introducing him to the drug, how easy will it be to take him off it. Will he need escalating doses as he gets older. Like I said, not a lot to do with dogs but I thought I'd offer you the questions rolling around in my mind.
Re: Canine mind That's an interesting suggestion Tina. I will need to discuss it all with my vet. I'm trying to get as much info as possible on the subject before I see him though as he is of the opinion that castration will solve all their problems !!!! I don't find it easy to tell someone who technically should know that they are wrong. :-\ I have actually said to the OH I wonder if there is a doggy equivalent to Ritalin. :. I have taught children who were prescribed Ritalin. Ritalin does make an amazing difference to children with ADHD. They are able to concentrate much more and so it helps a lot with learning. Lizi Angel suggests using a tryptophan supplement which encourages seratonin when dealing with any form of aggression. I looked into tryptophans a couple of months ago so I might have another look at them. The problem is since finding out that magnesium shouldn't be given to dogs with a history of UTIs I'm concerned about ingredients. :-\
Re: Canine mind I think you are wise to investigate every avenue Jen , knowledge is needed in able to make an informed decision . Whilst I do believe that castration can help with some issues , it is not the cure all that so many people assume it is and in some cases , can actually make matters worse , good luck in your digging
Re: Canine mind Just found some research that suggests tryptophan may help with territorial aggression but has no effect on excitability, hyperactivity or anxiety. Back to square one. :
Re: Canine mind I've read that blog before - I think the thoughts she puts forward about what castration helps with are backed up with some evidence (Pippa has previously posted the relevant study before). That same research though was used by Sophia Yin in her blog to support her view that the routine castration of dogs is a good idea, and her view that castration helps with all sorts of problems. I have a bias against castrating dogs, so I'm inclined to look at the studies and think "it hardly helps any behaviour problems" - which is what Linzi is saying. Others, well respected trainers and behaviourists, do think otherwise though. Trying suprelorin would not be my first port of call, for sure. But you have worked long and hard at this, so perhaps you are ready to try and see? Can your vet advise of the downsides? If the downsides are few or acceptable....well, maybe it would be worth a go? Do you think you have anything else left to try that might help? What happens, for example, if they spend time apart (I'm not sure how much they do anyway though)? Could there be elements of "littermate syndrome" going on that people have mentioned when Fiona took on two puppies? (I know absolutely nothing about this, by the way, only what people said when Fiona posted). On Linzi's points about fear-aggression, those make sense. Isn't she really challenging the use of the terminology "fear aggression" though, and still does describe a"fight" response to fear.
Re: Canine mind Jen, your dogs have come such a long way and all the work you've done, using training, has paid dividends. What are the nervous behaviours they still display that you're hoping to have an impact on?
Re: Canine mind [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9258.msg132973#msg132973 date=1419792266] Jen, your dogs have come such a long way and all the work you've done, using training, has paid dividends. What are the nervous behaviours they still display that you're hoping to have an impact on? [/quote] Your right Rachael they have come along way and to be honest sometimes I think I'm guilty of forgetting that. To be honest it's not so much their nervous problems I'm considering castration for its more their highly strung behaviour. The nervous issue is one reason im reluctant as well as evidence it doesn't help behaviour. I have been wondering though if they geld a thoroughbred race horse to make it more manageable why does castrating dogs not have the same effect ? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9258.msg132953#msg132953 date=1419788685] On Linzi's points about fear-aggression, those make sense. Isn't she really challenging the use of the terminology "fear aggression" though, and still does describe a"fight" response to fear. [/quote] Yes Julie your right. She is basically, I think, saying submission aggression is a more accurate description. A dog gives off submissive signals as well as aggressive. It's saying I'm backing off so you back off. It is a good description of my dogs behaviour. Thank you both.
Re: Canine mind Racehorses are gelded to stop them thinking of and flirting with mares when they should be thinking of racing. It's not to 'calm them down' but to stop sexual behaviours (which can of course be hard to manage...). There are other secondary reasons too - e.g. early gelding can produce a taller horse with a longer stride (as the growth stage continues for longer). The temporary chemical approach sounds like a safe option but I have doubts that it'd help with 'high strung' behaviour. I think that your solid approach to training will continue to have the biggest impact there
Re: Canine mind I don't really have much first hand experience with males but a lot of the issues you have had with your boys are similar to what I have with Penny. It was a big decision for me to get her speyed as I think I had initially thought not to. I tried to find research about changes in behaviour in bitches after speying and I couldn't find anything that could help me make up my mind either way. A lot of the bits and prices I read, however, seemed to agree that speying could actually increase, or cause, reactive behaviour. There were a lot of factors involved in my decision to Spey Penny, but the biggest one for me is that she was having short seasons (coming into heat every three months). I read a lot about this and how the hormonal imbalances can keep them in a state of arousal all throughout the cycle instead of only when in heat - because the hirmones don't have enough time to dissipate in her system before he cycle begins again. Since having Penny speyed I have noticed some improvement in her behaviour - she no longer lunges at joggers, cyclists or motorcyclists, all of which I beleive were nervous behaviours. I don't know if it is the same for males - that their hormonal cycles can affect their behaviour in the same way as it does for a bitch. Certainly human males have been shown to have a 'time of the month' where their different hormone levels fluctuate like for a female, so why should the same not be true for animals?
Re: Canine mind I know you have done much research on this Jen, and your dogs HAVE come a long way under your guidance and training. Do you think as they get older they might "mellow" out a bit more? In other words, perhaps just the passage of time might help to deal with their issues? I know that's not a lot of help right at this moment, but just a thought I had.
Re: Canine mind Hi, I really no nothing about this, but just wanted to suggest that there was another thread I read about someone using an effective herbal treatment to calm dogs, sorry can't remeber what it was called, hope someone else might know, and if it would be suitable in this case. Maggie xx
Re: Canine mind [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9258.msg133026#msg133026 date=1419801338] What do you mean by "highly strung"? [/quote] It's difficult to explain. I know Charlie gets very excited and you've done a lot of work with him but with my two it seems more than just over excitement. They are 'on their toes' easily ,to use a horsey term, wired, constantly alert and ready. They find it difficult to calm down unless the stimulus is removed. I've owned and know excitable dogs these two seem different. More scout than Scott. This might sound daft but to me there behaviour is a bit like a thoroughbred. Their behaviour gives away the fact they were bred to work they weren't bred to run around for a bit then lie in front of the fire. If that makes sense. They have improved no doubt about it. If you remember Scott would whinge while I ate and they didn't settle. Now I have two silent dogs lying be me feet while I eat my tea. Unfortunately at the moment the rotties we walk with are in season. Even if we don't walk with them they don't live more than a couple of miles away, closer as the crow flies, so I guess they can smell them when outside. Plus they do the same walk as us so their scent will be everywhere. They overlap with their season so it goes on for five to six weeks. I'm hoping that's why s&s are more 'highly strung' at the moment. I agree/hope Lisa that as they get older they will naturally calm down. They will be four on Friday though and sometimes it feels like I'm dealing with the same issues over and over. However I do need to remind myself they have improved a lot. I think because it's gradual improvement it's easy to forget just how much.
Re: Canine mind I have had my three males castrated and cannot see a reason (from my point of view) not to do so. If a dog is sexually frustrated I think that is sad for the dog (not talking about your dogs Jen), some dogs are fine being left entire they don't seem interested in sex I wouldn't have a young dog castrated until he is well over a year as castration does affect the growth plates of the dog. My one male is as your dogs are Jen, he was wired that way as a pup and made much worse by breaking his elbow at 16 weeks and missing out on vital socialisation due to being in a crate then confined to a room, then five minute walks on a lead, so he was 8 months old before I could really do anything with him. I had him castrated at 11 months, it didn't make him more nervous. At that point I didn't know what I know now so I perhaps could have helped him more. My second Lab would mark everywhere, especially when we were doing gundog training classes. That completely stopped after castration. I rescued a 13 month German Pointer who was incredibly nervous, but tended to react more by flight than fight. Castration did not make him more nervous in fact it settled him down. In your position I would chemically castrate them both and see what effect it has. If an improvement, then you could have them castrated. I have heard that one of the chemical castration medications can be counter productive, make the dog much worse, though I believe that is rare.
Re: Canine mind Thank you Stacia that's very interesting. When my two get really worked up with excitement, especially Scout, I don't like it, it's not nice to see and, this might sound daft, I worry that it can't be good for them. I can calm them down by removing them from the situation but I can't find away to stop them getting like that in the first place or to calm down while still in the presence of the stimulus. That's what I'm looking for away for them to be able to control themselves. :-\
Re: Canine mind Hi Jen, your description of Scott and Scout sounds like Charlie, if there's anything stimulating around he is literally up on his back legs, totally alert all the time and it is impossible to remove any stimulus when you live in the coutry side so it's just about controlling and calming down, and like you we can't find a way to stop this in the first place. Charlie was neutered at 6 months before he was put up for rescue so not sure it makes a difference but obviously I don't know what he was like before I have thought a lot about calming herbs but not sure :-\. Like Stacia said just hoping that with maturity comes calmness and Charlie is now 4 so please let it be soon : As everyone has said you have done an amazing job so far so keep going x
Re: Canine mind I found another blog site www.reactivechampion.blogspot.co.uk I was reading some of her blogs in the best of section. One is Unreasonable expectations and Reasonable expectations and it makes a lot of sense. I need to remember s&s are dogs. All dogs react to some degree and it's unreasonable to expect them not to react. I shouldn't be disappointed if they react and there is a reason. For example Scout will quite often react if a dog stares directly at him which isn't an unreasonable response. I do think dealing with reactive dogs has given me unreasonable expectations in that I can't remember how a 'normal' dog reacts. Now when my dogs react I'm disappointed which isn't fair really. This doesn't help me in dealing with their excitable behaviour but I feel a bit better. Must remember no dog is perfect.
Re: Canine mind [quote author=Jen link=topic=9258.msg133124#msg133124 date=1419870763] Must remember no dog is perfect. [/quote] And every one is, each in their unique, and sometimes frustrating, way!
