Charlie is a dreadful thief, and I’m thinking about how I’ve got to change in order to stop it. I’m sure it’s about me and what I do and how I react to Charlie’s actions. I’m not really talking about food. Charlie will nick food if it’s left out unattended and a human is not nearby. But this isn’t the problem. The problem is things. If I’m in a room, and Charlie is out of his pen, and I don’t want to interact with him. “The Search” begins. I can stop “The Search” by interacting with him – telling him to do something, or giving him attention, clicker train or “go on your mat” etc (he won’t go on his mat forever though). But if I don’t want to stop him, or I’m tired of stopping him, it gets ridiculous. Charlie picks up anything and everything. Anything he can pick up, he will. And he looks and searches for things. So every surface in reach has to be clear of everything – phones (even if attached to the wall), small ornaments, ipads, books and so on. If he can’t find anything in a room, he’ll leave that room to see if there are things in another room (he now only has access to the TV room, kitchen and his pen. In this time he will counter surf to check every surface – tables, kitchen counters, radiator covers, occasional tables (usually knocks those over), desks, sideboards. He looks everywhere. This behaviour occurs everywhere – in whatever room he is in, including in other people’s houses, vets, at the hydro centre etc. If all else fails, he will go into his pen and try to bring back something from there – a towel for example. If there is nothing, he’ll pull out his bedding from his crate and drag that to us. If all else fails, he’ll even try to bring flooring (small rugs, door mats). His objective is to bring the thing to us. If we say “is that for me” he will hand the item over, and get a reward – cuddle, good boy, a treat. If we ignore him, he will run round with whatever he has, and makes a noise and a racket, then chew and destroy it. We are super, super careful to remove everything. But he searches so diligently, on every surface, and this doesn’t reduce even if he doesn’t find anything for days and days. And, of course, eventually he does find something. He has obviously learned a string of behaviours – find something, bring it, get a reward. But this isn’t surprising. I clicker trained exactly that for bring back the dummy! And spent ages and ages praising him for carrying and giving me things. I am sure I have caused this, and am now reinforcing it, hence having a good think now. So what to do? Always ignore him when he has got something? That’s easier said than done – we cannot have him running round with the item when he has an injured leg. And sometimes, it’s an item I am not prepared to have destroyed. Say “is that for me?” but no reward for handing it over? I fear that all this will lead to though is that he’ll stop handing over the item – which was the problem we had before we taught and rewarded “is that for me?”. Should I concentrate on stopping the search for things in the first place? If I have cleared absolutely everything out of a room, and shut the door so he can’t check other rooms, he does give up and will then settle. Do I just keep doing this? But honestly, if I take my eye off him for a second in a vet’s consulting room he fetches something! Or maybe, once he is back on full exercise, and can fetch things again, it’ll all come back under control…?
Re: Charlie the theif Hi Julie , in a way , you have answered your own question here , Charlie is indeed being praised for not only bringing things to you, but actively searching for things to bring and then he gets praise and a treat . Best thing is to try and seperate the two retrieving issues , only using the praise and treat when he is handing over something that you have thrown for him . At other times , when he himself has found a chosen an object , use another word such as Leave , when he does, tell him good lad but no treat as he is using the unauthorised retrieve to his own ends , treats x Hope this makes sense ?
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=4665.msg57235#msg57235 date=1393419048] At other times , when he himself has found a chosen an object , use another word such as Leave , when he does, tell him good lad but no treat as he is using the unauthorised retrieve to his own ends , treats x Hope this makes sense ? [/quote] He doesn't leave though - we tried everything. "Is that for me" was our response to the nicking behaviour - which has always been there. The behaviour came first, and "is that for me?" came second. If I swap "leave" for "is that for me?" I will have to reward "leave" to train it. So I can't quite see why this would make me better off. Won't I just have the exact same behaviour but with "leave" instead of "is that for me" at the end? Added: he doesn't always get treats for "is that for me" although he sometimes does - when I've told him fetch first, he does. He always gets a good boy or attention (which I suspect is what he wants out of all of this).
Re: Charlie the theif Hope you manage to find something to sort this behaviour out Julie. Have a similar problem with Otis, chewing stuff up, but havent taught him to bring stuff to me, he is a dreadful thief and counter surfer too. Take care Maggie x
Re: Charlie the theif I feel for you Julie! Odin is just the same. If he gets no attention he's retrieving just about everything in his reach(remote control, iphone etc). I guess we overdid the rewarding for bringing things when he was a puppy. ;D ;D At the Moment we're just taking the objects without any praise or treat when he's doing his "unwanted retrieves" but mega praise and treat when we sent him for a retrieve.
Re: Charlie the theif Julie, this is really common in young retrievers. Rachael does it too. There are probably lots of reasons, a strong carrying instinct, attention seeking (because we reward it) and so on. Each time she picks something up, I ask her to deliver it to me and give her a toy in return. I am distinctly low key about the 'swap' and, if I see her approaching something with 'intent' I will sometimes use a 'leave that' command which I have taught her, but mostly she grabs things when I am not looking. If you want a dog to be an obsessive retriever as I do, I don't think there is much more you can do. At least not without some risk. And there is a limit to the amount of time you can ask a dog to spend sitting still or lying down. I still don't allow Rachael access to the living room except under close supervision, because I don't want to spend the whole day playing retrieving games, even if she does The other rooms, I'm afraid we just keep everything up off the floor. I am lucky in that she never counter surfs and has never even tried to take food from the table or worktops. So for me, it is mainly the floor and low tables that are an issue. The good news is, she is getting much better now. And dogs I have had like this in the past, have done it less and less as they get older. I do agree, it can be quite annoying, but I think you'll find that Charlie does grow out of it eventually.
Re: Charlie the theif Many thanks for the replies. I'll work on my leave it generally (for anticipation leave its) and try to make the hand it over very low key - it's true the "is that for meeee" is exciting (originally deliberately so, to make us interesting compared with the alternative of run round and kill), and I know I need to change it to something more subtle and less exciting. It might be adding to the whole big game. I'm super pleased that he is likely to grow out of it!
Re: Charlie the theif Hmm - Do you think that as well as working on a 'leave', it might be as beneficial to reward for settling down? He is doing this for attention, I'm sure you're right there, as well as a desire to retrieve, so it might work to reward him for those times that he settles... There is a Kikopup video on this, I'm sure - the one where she sneaks up to dozing dogs and rewards them? Building that link that good things happen when he settles down as well as when he brings you things?? Of course it will require plenty of 'catching him being good' too - and proofing the room he has access to, so that he can't find anything... As you know I discovered to my cost the other week just how exciting 'Is that for meeee?' can be. Those words will never cross my lips again, because I have more chance of training the dog than I training my daughters to leave things lying within reach. Or shutting their doors. The bathroom will always be a danger zone, because she has that door sussed : Clare
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=ClareJ link=topic=4665.msg57248#msg57248 date=1393423640] Hmm - Do you think that as well as working on a 'leave', it might be as beneficial to reward for settling down? He is doing this for attention, I'm sure you're right there, as well as a desire to retrieve, so it might work to reward him for those times that he settles... [/quote] Yes, it seems like it's for attention. It often follows an unsuccessful "if I lie across your laptop you can't type, so you might as well play with me" attempt. We've worked super hard on settling - and have a fair bit of success, could also do more on it for sure, I think. He will go on his mat, and settle down. But for about 20 mins max. After that, the times I can get him to stay there get shorter and shorter. It doesn't help that he was bursting with energy, with not enough exercise, of course. I suppose it's just too much to ask a 1 year old on barely much exercise to be settled all that much (or maybe that's me being soft). He is super active all day, then sleeps like a log at night and doesn't want to get up. So sleeping much in the day has never been his thing. I also tried the "get your labrador to stop pestering you" article. As I thought the fetching stuff was pestering, really. But he ended up in his pen too much, and in the long term, too much pen confinement made him worse.
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4665.msg57256#msg57256 date=1393424485] Yes, it seems like it's for attention. It often follows an unsuccessful "if I lie across your laptop you can't type, so you might as well play with me" attempt. [/quote] Sometimes I look down and realise there's a spaniel muzzle on the keyboard of my laptop. That's the size advantage he has, he can sneak in there sometimes without me really noticing... He also operates a 'must be in middle of hug' policy. Leave a gap, any gap, and he's convinced it's spaniel-shaped. As Pippa says then, hope that this behaviour reduces as he matures. Being back on full exercise will also help no end, I'm sure. Trouble is, Charlie is just so lovely, I can see you wouldn't really want to ignore him either! Clare
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=ClareJ link=topic=4665.msg57260#msg57260 date=1393425042] I can see you wouldn't really want to ignore him either! [/quote] I think a fair bit has "slipped" over the last few months! Despite my good intentions, the most important thing was to get him through in a happy state of mind. Or at least it seemed so. I'm now writing out my training list and all the things I've got to get back to working on for when I get him back! Yippee!
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=4665.msg57351#msg57351 date=1393452966] Are you actually getting any "work" work done Julie? ;D [/quote] Of course not. But I'm super busy waiting until 11am tomorrow when I can see my puppy. : My busy work starts on Monday, I had this week booked off for puppy stuff. I didn't realise that I would have to book appointments to see his furiness! Was thinking I'd sort of spend the week with him....
Re: Charlie the theif A bit of R&R will do you good - you have earned it Hope you have a lovely visit with Prince Charlie tomorrow xxx
Re: Charlie the theif I can't offer much advice on this, an what you've already received has been brilliant. But just a thought - do you leave toys down on the floor for him? It might help to teach him that there are acceptable things for him to carry around which might take his mind off 'the search' for something else to grab. As someone else mentioned I think, retrievers love to have stuff in their mouths, it could be this carrying instinct that he's looking to satisfy. It could just be a case of showing him the things it's ok for him to carry around and removing the things that aren't?
Re: Charlie the theif [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=4665.msg57388#msg57388 date=1393487188] I can't offer much advice on this, an what you've already received has been brilliant. But just a thought - do you leave toys down on the floor for him? It might help to teach him that there are acceptable things for him to carry around which might take his mind off 'the search' for something else to grab. As someone else mentioned I think, retrievers love to have stuff in their mouths, it could be this carrying instinct that he's looking to satisfy. It could just be a case of showing him the things it's ok for him to carry around and removing the things that aren't? [/quote] I think you are right, yes - when he was allowed toys, his game was to pick up a largish toy (usually his alien sea creature), trot round the dinning room table with it, trot back to the sofa and offer it to me. I touched the toy and said "Oh! Big strong boy carrying that!" and then he'd trot round the table, back to the sofa....(this drove me a little nutty, actually, he'd do it for hours....). We had to stop this, and remove all toys. Because once in a while, he wouldn't play the steady trotting game and he'd decide to kill the toy in a mad frenzy of shaking, jumping and racing round. That's not allowed with a ruptured cruciate ligament. So yes, he is toy deprived, and I bet this hasn't helped one little bit. I don't think he was as bad as he is now when he had toys.
