clicking for giving me the dummy...

Discussion in 'Clicker Training' started by JulieT, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. heidrun

    heidrun Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    [quote author=JulieT link=topic=2996.msg32325#msg32325 date=1382882299]
    Thanks Heidrun

    We managed me standing and a sit before delivery last night - 5 perfect then stopped. It all feels a little fragile though - particularly the hand over. I think I'm doing some of the work and probably putting my hand out too soon. I read again the book and am going to work on me putting my hand out and withdrawing it before i take it, and also having my hand in a different place so he has to more deliberately reach for my hand. I'll have to add a cue now too. I'll work on that today and tomorrow, just to try nail the "in my hand" bit.

    I'm in a different house now, so location has changed too. Then I'll try further away. Then outside....
    [/quote]

    What do you mean by putting your hand out and withdrawing it. Is that what you are doing at the moment or something you plan to do?
     
  2. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    I haven't done it yet. Is it a rubbish idea?

    In the book, the instructions are to be able to place your hand under the dog's mouth, then take it away - it's true that this is BEFORE teaching the dog to drop the dummy in your hand though, it's shaping towards that. So perhaps I'm already passed that point.

    What I mean by the delivery feels "fragile" is that I think Charlie lets go of the dummy as soon as my hand is on it, and I think I'm clicking this moment. I think if I didn't click, he would still release the dummy (I can't believe I'm moaning about this - after starting with the problem he wouldn't let it go at all!). Perhaps I should let it fall at that point. Just rest my hand on it and add a cue to release? Then cue and click at the same time. No, that doesn't seem right either...
     
  3. heidrun

    heidrun Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    What book are you following, Julie?
     
  4. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    The instructions in gundog book 1 from the gundog trust - but I didn't do it quite the same because departed from the instructions when Charlie kept legging it with the dummy, then got a bit disheartened so just moved straight to "give me the dratted dummy and I don't care how". I suppose I'm muddled now! Typical. ::) I can feel another video coming on...

    Let's see if I can get it right. So what I want is for Charlie to more definitely hold onto the dummy until he is given a signal to release (click or cue). But I haven't taught him hold, I skipped that bit because of the chomping. And I haven't shaped my hand approaching the dummy slowly, I've just gone straight to taking the dummy. Um...so now I need to withold the click, getting him to keep holding the dummy, for a couple of seconds while my hand is resting on it - start with one second. If he let's it go, I think I should let the dummy fall, and then he'll have to try again. I think. ::)
     
  5. heidrun

    heidrun Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    I don't quite understand why you want him to hold on longer than necessary to the dummy? Once your hand is on the dummy you should take it without any hesitation. :D
     
  6. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Hmmm....it's so good to "talk" to you about these things! So appreciate the tips and constructive challenge! Thanks so much.

    I'm going to do another video without changing anything - that way I can see what I'm doing exactly and can try and pin point the problem (if there is one!).
     
  7. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    I don't want to muddy the waters and am no clicker expert but it may help if you think about the final aim in a gundog context. If your dog is returning with a bird you want him to hold on to it until you take it off him at which point you want him to give it up straight away, into your hand.
     
  8. heidrun

    heidrun Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    What I would really like to see is what Charlie does and what you do on a normal retrieve outside without a clicker. Maybe your OH could take a video of you? :)
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Ok, it would be great if you could take a look - might have to wait until the weather improves a bit. I haven't yet tacked the clicker training on to a retrieve. I'll just do what I "normally" do.

    I've got one from a while ago, but it's in a corridor (a lane) with Chalie in a very calm state, and it was before we started clicker training and when he was still spitting out the dummy and getting treats....and before WGT#2 made me do proper hand signals...and the distance is too much...oh gosh, the extent of the horrors!
     
  10. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    [quote author=bbrown link=topic=2996.msg32350#msg32350 date=1382891972]
    I don't want to muddy the waters and am no clicker expert but it may help if you think about the final aim in a gundog context. If your dog is returning with a bird you want him to hold on to it until you take it off him at which point you want him to give it up straight away, into your hand.
    [/quote]

    Ok, that is helpful. I think what might be happening is I'm taking the dummy really quickly - when I see other videos (of people who know what they are doing) there seems to be a bit of a pause between the dog arriving and the person reaching for the dummy. And me taking the dummy feels a bit "fumbly" still like I sort of catch it.
     
  11. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Sorry Julie, I have missed most of this

    There seems to be a bit of confusion.

    The clicker retrieve is particularly useful for dogs that have delivery issues. It enables the handler to work on specific parts of the delivery. And it is fine to adapt it to suit an individual dog.

    One part of the clicker delivery teaches the dog to actively seek out your hand and place the dummy into it. It makes him responsible for getting the retrieve right into your hand. The dog will find if he lets go of the dummy when his muzzle is not over your hand, the dummy falls to the floor and he does not get his reward.

    That is the point of moving your hand into different positions and teaching the dog to adjust for this. It avoids the horrible 'grappling' for the dummy that you see so often on shoots
    .

    Teaching the dog to hold the dummy means that he won't spit it out if for some reason the handler cannot take it from him immediately. For example, if the handler is shooting and the dog returns with a retrieve, he will wait until his owner is ready to make his gun safe, and take the bird. Or if like me, his handler has several dogs sweeping up at once, then each dog as it comes in with a bird, may have to wait his turn.

    So in my view, it is a good thing to make the dog hold the dummy for a short period

    However, chomping is a problem with some dogs and in this case, the 'hold' is best kept to a minimum. Keeping the dog moving during the hold can help a dog that chomps. I think I put something on here about this earlier. Will try and find it.

    Julie, it sounds as though you have made huge progress on this, and it would be great to see a video of where you have got to. Personally, I would not tack this on to a retrieve until you have got it just right. The delivery does tend to temporarily become less 'tight' once the excitement of a retrieve is added on.

    Pippa
     
  12. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Many thanks - if not for the tips and encouragement from everyone I'd have given up! But he is bringing the dummy back, at least.

    I'll have a good think about all of this. Something is not straight with what I'm doing, I'm sure.

    I wonder if the thing is (also) about how I take the dummy - my hand is not under his mouth, I'm sort of gripping the dummy from above.

    A video is the thing - I'll get a few done (just got to nip and do a bit of work for a bit ::) - annoying how work gets in the way of doggy stuff!).
     
  13. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Sorry Pippa I should have said - I've read the bit about not chomping on the move, that works. But not really sure how I "use" it. I can keep moving while I take the dummy, but it's bound to lead to me falling flat on my face in a lumpy muddy field while I walk, look at the dog, and take the dummy (I'm a very clumsy person!). Is it an intermediate step to develop the hold?
     
  14. pippa@labforumHQ

    pippa@labforumHQ Administrator

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Have the dog walking along at heel - on the lead. Present the dummy (in front of the dog's mouth) let him grasp it whilst you are walking along and let him walk a few steps at heel holding it. Then stop. Take a couple of steps back and bring the dog in to deliver -

    You don't have to do this Julie, it is just a way of practicing the 'hold' with the dog 'on the move' and getting a 'delivery' under very controlled conditions. I have found it very helpful with Rachael who is also v possessive over the dummy.

    It is a question of building a 'memory bank' of good deliveries. The more ways you can do it, the better.

    Will try and video what I mean when the weather brightens up.
     
  15. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    Thanks very much, very much appreciated.
     
  16. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    I used this technique to improve Rileys hold. It didn't make it perfect but I certainly think it helped him learn to carry in the middle and be less likely to spit it out. :)
     
  17. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    [quote author=bbrown link=topic=2996.msg32414#msg32414 date=1382907243]
    I used this technique to improve Rileys hold. It didn't make it perfect but I certainly think it helped him learn to carry in the middle and be less likely to spit it out. :)
    [/quote]

    Thanks Barbara - that's helpful, i think this will help. I need a good think about it all now - I'm learning that I need to pause and mull it over to try get it straight in my mind!
     
  18. heidrun

    heidrun Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    As a matter of interest, how does Charlie carry that safe stick or whatever it is in your avatar picture? Does he always pick it up in the middle?
     
  19. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: clicking for giving me the dummy...

    He doesn't get it anymore, and hasn't had it for a while, it's been hidden due to mis/over use by OH. He usually picked it up in the middle, but it was very long for him and he would often fumble it, then pick it back up by a knob on the end and drag it (he was shorter when he had it). He wasn't super keen on it actually.

    The only thing he gets apart from his dummy now is a tennis ball. Last Friday he got a football on a string but he picked that up by the string and galloped round killing it for 20mins (I timed him!), so I thought that wasn't good.
     
  20. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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