Hi all, I need your opinions. Right now, my 12 week old lab is in her crate quite a bit, and I am concerned it is too much. This is my first puppy, so I have so very much to learn. My husband gets her up around 6:30 AM to feed and play with her for about a half hour. Then once I'm ready for work, I take her outside around 8:00 AM, and we play until about 8:30..so an hour each morning. One of us comes home at lunch (around noon) to feed her and play with her for 30-40 minutes. Then we are home by 4:30, and she is out of the crate the rest of the evening, until between 9:30 and 10, where she is given our full attention. We have found she can't stay up much later than this, because she starts acting up due to being exhausted from a full evening. On the weekends, we have her out quite a bit more of course. I absolutely hate that she's home alone so much during the week, believe me ... I would love to be home with her every day, but that's not realistic at this time. We both must work for now. In the future when she is out of her destructive puppy phase, I would like for her to have the freedom to be out of her crate more often while we're gone and at night, but that's of course not an option now. And when she's a little older and fully vaccinated, I would like to take her to doggy daycare every so often during the week. But until then, do you all have any tips or thoughts on the matter? Would setting up a play pen in her usual play area in our house be better for during the day, so as to keep her from getting bored & cooped up in her crate? My only concern with this is that it will affect all the progress we've made with potty and crate training. She has done really well with her crate thus far. She likes to be in it. But I am so worried it's too much. Thanks in advance for any feedback. I'd love to hear from others who have full-time jobs ...how do you handle this?!
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. Sorry that I cant reply as someone who has been in this situation but I`m sure that someone who works and has a puppy will be along soon to offer suggestions . It is clear from reading your post that you are a caring owner and are doing all you can to do the very best for your little one , it may be that as she gets older and bigger, she will need more room than her crate can offer .
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. Hi there and welcome to the forum. When I got my puppy I was in the same situation as yourself - I crate trained her and left her during the day right from the start. I worked 8.30-5 and my OH worked 8-4. I was able to come home at lunch so she was left 8-12:10 and then 12:50-4:15 including travelling time to and from work. She adapted to this very well, although housetraining probably did a bit longer than if I had been home all day with her. I am a firm believer that dogs should be able to be cope with being left alone for a few hours, even if you intend to be at home with them, it is an important life skill for them to have. For this reason I took very little time off when we first picked her up - I took a Friday off to pick her up, had the weekend off with her, went back to work for half days mon, tues and weds, and then back to work properly with coming home at lunch time. She is now 19months old. 9 months ago I changed my job to one where I work a slightly shorter day but am no longer able to come home at lunch time. So including travelling time Penny is left 8:50-5:15 maximum. For the first six months of this she was crated - I didn't like the idea of her being crated during that long time without a break, but it was what we had to do at the time. Recently I have begun to leave her with the crate door open and a baby gate in the kitchen doorway (crate is in the kitchen) so she is not so confined. She spends most of the day lying in her bed. So you can have a dog and work full time. It is a difficult decision to make as to whether the dog should be crated all the time and should be about what best fits into your life and schedule. Many people decide to de-crate their pups once they reach a certain age - usually around 6 months or so once they are housetrained and can be trusted to be left alone without getting into (too much) mischief! If you are worried about keeping her crated for so long and as she is still such a young pup you could consider attaching a playpen to the crate, so that she still has her crate there but also an area where she can get out to stretch her legs so she's not so confined but still secure enough that she's not getting into trouble. Edited to add: I just wanted to add that I have had no issues with Penny being left alone - aside from howling at night the first week we had her, and a few accidents whilst I was at work for the first couple of months we have never had a problem. She had the usual puppy destructiveness but had grown out of this by 9 months old (another reason we kept her crated so long I guess). Since being out of her crate I feel she is a lot happier and she is not destructive in the slightest - I can now give her a duvet in her crate which I couldn't when I confined her as she would have shredded it! I am now happy with going out for the day and knowing that my dog is ok being left alone at home - we never leave her longer than about 8 hours though so make sure we are not away too long.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. In all honesty I have to agree with you. I think the amount of time your young puppy is in the crate is too long. How is she is toileting? Is she lasting 4 hrs between wees ? You say once she gets past the destructive stage she will have freedom. Labradors can be very destructive and this can go on until they are at least 2 years old for some dogs! I decrated my dogs at around 15months and they weren't destructive dogs, so be prepared that this may go on for a while. I have never used a play pen, however I would be concerned that a exuberant puppy might try to propel itself over the top, get stuck trying to climb the sides or knock the sides over. I would only use a play pen when someone is there to monitor what the puppy is doing in it. The kindest option for your puppy in this situation would be for you to find someone to come in more frequently during the day to interact with your puppy and let it out of the crate to run around. Hope this helps. Chloe
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I work full time ish. I am lucky in that I can occasionally take her to work with me and I work 5 mins away from home. When we first got Harley she was crated when I went to work. The first 2 weeks I worked 2 hours in the morning, 2 in the afternoon. I work flexi so I do arrange my work schedule around being able to come home at lunch etc. At 7 months old my daughter came home for a month and Harley didn't use her crate during this period. After this, I put Harley in the kitchen with her bed, toys and a chew/kong. I have webcam (Jumicam) set up on my laptop in the kitchen and on my mobile. I can watch her at anytime (which I do lots ). Every time I watch her she is either asleep or chewing/eating whatever I have left with her. When I come home I spend every minute I can with Harley. I don't feel that she misses out as I ensure we do training every day, go on nice long walks and play a lot. She never seems sad and doesn't cry/bark when we leave. If you are gone long days, doggy day care and/or a dog walker/friend coming in are great for breaking up the day. I'm looking into 1 day a fortnight doggy daycare at the minute. Good luck
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. The fact that you are asking the question shows that you are a caring owner and no doubt doing your best to minimise the amount of time she's in the crate. Modern life is not exactly dog friendly. People have livings to earn. If only people who could offer dogs an ideal existence were allowed to have dogs ,I think society in general would be the poorer. Dogs do sleep a lot, so just do your best. We still use a crate for Molly at 11 months. We leave the door open during the day and she nips in there when she fancies a snooze.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I am also a working Mum. Probably from 14-16 weeks old Lilly was left at home in her crate from 8am until 12ish when OH popped home to let her out for 30-40 mins. Then on her own again until my daughter came in at 3pm from school (son hot on her heels at 3.50). I can't remember much peeing in the crate at that point - she was pretty quick to housetrain. After 3 or 4 weeks she rarely went out at lunchtime desperate to wee and sometimes didn't at all, so we gradually went in later at lunch and it wasn't long before we stretched it to the 3pm home time. Worked really well. She is well known for having a bladder like a camel though. She settled really well in her crate, quite happy, didn't cry, layed back dog in the house, always has been. We may have been lucky, difficult to know whether its her nature or whether that is just what she has learned. I know a lot of people feel this is too long, but it can work, and clearly you care enough to ask and do this with consideration. Hope it works out
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. Here are some thoughts on this topic that might help a bit - Should you get a labrador if you work full-time There are so many different opinions on how long it is ok to leave a dog alone for, and at what age, that it is very difficult to get a consensus. You will find those that believe no-one should have a dog if they work full-time, to those that have well-adjusted dogs that are left alone for the entire working day. Most fall somewhere in between, and many opt for some kind of day care or pop-in visits at least until the puppy is older. I personally wouldn't crate a small puppy for hours on end. So, if I had to leave a puppy for more than a couple of hours a day, I would opt for a substantial pen with a crate (open door) inside it, and puppy pads as far away from the bed as possible. This enables the puppy to get away from his bed if he needs a wee and means that he isn't getting uncomfortable with a full bladder.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. When Nelson arrived on the Thursday I was at home and the following week hubby was off and during the summer I have had quite a lot of time of work. I only work M/t/w and worried that he was left on his own. I popped home at lunchtime to feed him and toilet then went back to work. Hubby was home at 4.30. We didn't crate him in the house, only in the car. So he sleeps in his bed in the kitchen. He cannot wait for me to go to work so he can tackle the stuffed kong. Radio left on. Recently I was unable to come home at lunchtime, and he no longer is fed at lunchtime and i was concerned how long he was being left...8.30 - 4.30 but honestly he seems fine. Hubby gives him a run in the morning and they go off in the evening for another walk. Thursday./Friday when I am at home he does have his sleep routine. As long as you have a routine then the labbies adjust well. I am sure all will be well.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. We have always tried to limit crate time to 2 hours a day, we do that by working opposing shifts, or one of us works part time. Less money and some nasty jobs we have done but dogs seem happy. I think working full time can work but not by crating and leaving them more than a couple of hours without someone letting them out and interacting with them. You obviously care a lot as it is worrying you to me that says you know yourself this isn't best for the dog.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I'm afraid I don't have any tips with regard to the crate, we didn't crate train Ollie. Our routine sounds very similar to yours Rue7514 and this started when Ollie was also about 12 weeks. I wanted to share my experience with you anyway to reassure you - I know when we first got ours I was trawling the internet and almost looking for someone to say "hey it's ok to do that"...in all honesty I still do sometimes! When Ollie was very small he was in the kitchen and hallway with puppy pads. As he got older we allowed him into the living room as well during the day where he happily curls up on the sofa for a snooze. We've been very lucky and haven't had any problems with chewing, deystroying etc. Apart from a few teething marks on one of the chair legs he hasn't done anything destructive while he's been alone. As some of the other contributors have said, house training took a little longer than if we'd have been home but they get there eventually and it's not the end of the world. Ollie is now 10 months old and is a happy, well-adjusted dog. It seems almost too good to be true, but my dad always say to me that people tend to over-complicate dogs - they're happy if they've got somewhere warm to sleep and are fed, watered and exercised regularly. We've always kept Ollie very well exercised and because of that he's more than happy to sleep during the day. In fact at weekends sometimes he takes himself to another room to sleep and by Monday morning he's happy to see the back of us for some peace I think! We're very committed to his happiness and so because we leave him during the day we always make sure one of us is home during the evening and rarely leave him alone at weekends. Deep down you will know whether or not your dog is happy, even if your guilt tries to tell you otherwise. Or opinionated people who have likely never been in that situation before. It's very easy to judge from the outside looking in so try not to take too much notice of any negative comments. You sound like a very committed owner and that's the most important thing.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. Hello, I can see from how thoughtful you are, that you care for your pup very much. I'm a working lab mum - sometimes I work horrifically long hours. My boy was also injured when young, so had periods of lengthy confinement in a crate. I believe - quite passionately - that dog ownership is not reserved for the unemployed, or part time workers. But, there is a but - this comes at a cost. I also believe that you should provide care and activities for your dog while you are at work. Yes, dogs should be able to settle calmly without getting themselves into a mess, for a few hours. But not all day everyday. I like the ASPCA guidelines for the maximum time in a day dogs should be in a crate: 8 - 10 weeks : 30 to 60 minutes 11 - 14 weeks : 1 - 3 hours 15 - 16 weeks : 3 - 4 hours 17+ weeks: 4 - 5 hours I used a puppy play pen - you can buy very solid, high ones - until my boy was crate trained at 10 months. I also used day care, puppy visit services, dog walkers and friends and family to make sure my boy got enough care and activities through the day. When my boy was injured, he spent far too long in his crate - there was no choice about that. His behaviour was quite dramatically altered. This did not take the form of howling, or destructive behaviour - observing him in his crate, you would think he was perfect, he was calm and quiet. But compared to how he was normally, outside the crate, he was "hyper", hugely sensitive to his environment, and changes in his environment, he would react with mad excitement to anything. I think older dogs might cope better, but I'd say your instincts are quite right, and you should try to find ways to allow your pup more time out of the crate. I don't think this just means a playpen though. I'd add at least 30 minutes in the morning play in the garden, and the same in the afternoon. Although a puppy crèche would be an even better option.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=7583.msg105926#msg105926 date=1409468452] Hi there and welcome to the forum. When I got my puppy I was in the same situation as yourself - I crate trained her and left her during the day right from the start. I worked 8.30-5 and my OH worked 8-4. I was able to come home at lunch so she was left 8-12:10 and then 12:50-4:15 including travelling time to and from work. She adapted to this very well, although housetraining probably did a bit longer than if I had been home all day with her. I am a firm believer that dogs should be able to be cope with being left alone for a few hours, even if you intend to be at home with them, it is an important life skill for them to have. For this reason I took very little time off when we first picked her up - I took a Friday off to pick her up, had the weekend off with her, went back to work for half days mon, tues and weds, and then back to work properly with coming home at lunch time. She is now 19months old. 9 months ago I changed my job to one where I work a slightly shorter day but am no longer able to come home at lunch time. So including travelling time Penny is left 8:50-5:15 maximum. For the first six months of this she was crated - I didn't like the idea of her being crated during that long time without a break, but it was what we had to do at the time. Recently I have begun to leave her with the crate door open and a baby gate in the kitchen doorway (crate is in the kitchen) so she is not so confined. She spends most of the day lying in her bed. So you can have a dog and work full time. It is a difficult decision to make as to whether the dog should be crated all the time and should be about what best fits into your life and schedule. Many people decide to de-crate their pups once they reach a certain age - usually around 6 months or so once they are housetrained and can be trusted to be left alone without getting into (too much) mischief! If you are worried about keeping her crated for so long and as she is still such a young pup you could consider attaching a playpen to the crate, so that she still has her crate there but also an area where she can get out to stretch her legs so she's not so confined but still secure enough that she's not getting into trouble. Edited to add: I just wanted to add that I have had no issues with Penny being left alone - aside from howling at night the first week we had her, and a few accidents whilst I was at work for the first couple of months we have never had a problem. She had the usual puppy destructiveness but had grown out of this by 9 months old (another reason we kept her crated so long I guess). Since being out of her crate I feel she is a lot happier and she is not destructive in the slightest - I can now give her a duvet in her crate which I couldn't when I confined her as she would have shredded it! I am now happy with going out for the day and knowing that my dog is ok being left alone at home - we never leave her longer than about 8 hours though so make sure we are not away too long. [/quote] Good to hear you're in a similar situation, and that Penny has turned out to be a happy, healthy dog. Very encouraging to hear. Thanks for the feedback! It will take some time for me to not feel completely guilty over it, but she is doing great so far. [quote author=rubyrubyruby link=topic=7583.msg105927#msg105927 date=1409468616] In all honesty I have to agree with you. I think the amount of time your young puppy is in the crate is too long. How is she is toileting? Is she lasting 4 hrs between wees ? You say once she gets past the destructive stage she will have freedom. Labradors can be very destructive and this can go on until they are at least 2 years old for some dogs! I decrated my dogs at around 15months and they weren't destructive dogs, so be prepared that this may go on for a while. I have never used a play pen, however I would be concerned that a exuberant puppy might try to propel itself over the top, get stuck trying to climb the sides or knock the sides over. I would only use a play pen when someone is there to monitor what the puppy is doing in it. The kindest option for your puppy in this situation would be for you to find someone to come in more frequently during the day to interact with your puppy and let it out of the crate to run around. Hope this helps. Chloe [/quote] Most days, she does well with not going in her crate, though she has an accident here and there. [quote author=Naya link=topic=7583.msg105943#msg105943 date=1409475068] I work full time ish. I am lucky in that I can occasionally take her to work with me and I work 5 mins away from home. When we first got Harley she was crated when I went to work. The first 2 weeks I worked 2 hours in the morning, 2 in the afternoon. I work flexi so I do arrange my work schedule around being able to come home at lunch etc. At 7 months old my daughter came home for a month and Harley didn't use her crate during this period. After this, I put Harley in the kitchen with her bed, toys and a chew/kong. I have webcam (Jumicam) set up on my laptop in the kitchen and on my mobile. I can watch her at anytime (which I do lots ). Every time I watch her she is either asleep or chewing/eating whatever I have left with her. When I come home I spend every minute I can with Harley. I don't feel that she misses out as I ensure we do training every day, go on nice long walks and play a lot. She never seems sad and doesn't cry/bark when we leave. If you are gone long days, doggy day care and/or a dog walker/friend coming in are great for breaking up the day. I'm looking into 1 day a fortnight doggy daycare at the minute. Good luck [/quote] Love the webcam idea! We too devote our evenings to our pup. It can be exhausting, but I know it's worth it. [quote author=editor link=topic=7583.msg105991#msg105991 date=1409486910] Here are some thoughts on this topic that might help a bit - Should you get a labrador if you work full-time There are so many different opinions on how long it is ok to leave a dog alone for, and at what age, that it is very difficult to get a consensus. You will find those that believe no-one should have a dog if they work full-time, to those that have well-adjusted dogs that are left alone for the entire working day. Most fall somewhere in between, and many opt for some kind of day care or pop-in visits at least until the puppy is older. I personally wouldn't crate a small puppy for hours on end. So, if I had to leave a puppy for more than a couple of hours a day, I would opt for a substantial pen with a crate (open door) inside it, and puppy pads as far away from the bed as possible. This enables the puppy to get away from his bed if he needs a wee and means that he isn't getting uncomfortable with a full bladder. [/quote] Thanks for the feedback and the article. [quote author=Katie+Ollie link=topic=7583.msg106439#msg106439 date=1409670243] I'm afraid I don't have any tips with regard to the crate, we didn't crate train Ollie. Our routine sounds very similar to yours Rue7514 and this started when Ollie was also about 12 weeks. I wanted to share my experience with you anyway to reassure you - I know when we first got ours I was trawling the internet and almost looking for someone to say "hey it's ok to do that"...in all honesty I still do sometimes! When Ollie was very small he was in the kitchen and hallway with puppy pads. As he got older we allowed him into the living room as well during the day where he happily curls up on the sofa for a snooze. We've been very lucky and haven't had any problems with chewing, deystroying etc. Apart from a few teething marks on one of the chair legs he hasn't done anything destructive while he's been alone. As some of the other contributors have said, house training took a little longer than if we'd have been home but they get there eventually and it's not the end of the world. Ollie is now 10 months old and is a happy, well-adjusted dog. It seems almost too good to be true, but my dad always say to me that people tend to over-complicate dogs - they're happy if they've got somewhere warm to sleep and are fed, watered and exercised regularly. We've always kept Ollie very well exercised and because of that he's more than happy to sleep during the day. In fact at weekends sometimes he takes himself to another room to sleep and by Monday morning he's happy to see the back of us for some peace I think! We're very committed to his happiness and so because we leave him during the day we always make sure one of us is home during the evening and rarely leave him alone at weekends. Deep down you will know whether or not your dog is happy, even if your guilt tries to tell you otherwise. Or opinionated people who have likely never been in that situation before. It's very easy to judge from the outside looking in so try not to take too much notice of any negative comments. You sound like a very committed owner and that's the most important thing. [/quote] My husband feels the same way as your dad! He says it doesn't take much to keep a dog happy. Thanks for sharing, your post was just what I needed to read.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7583.msg106497#msg106497 date=1409687403] Hello, I can see from how thoughtful you are, that you care for your pup very much. I'm a working lab mum - sometimes I work horrifically long hours. My boy was also injured when young, so had periods of lengthy confinement in a crate. I believe - quite passionately - that dog ownership is not reserved for the unemployed, or part time workers. But, there is a but - this comes at a cost. I also believe that you should provide care and activities for your dog while you are at work. Yes, dogs should be able to settle calmly without getting themselves into a mess, for a few hours. But not all day everyday. I like the ASPCA guidelines for the maximum time in a day dogs should be in a crate: 8 - 10 weeks : 30 to 60 minutes 11 - 14 weeks : 1 - 3 hours 15 - 16 weeks : 3 - 4 hours 17+ weeks: 4 - 5 hours I used a puppy play pen - you can buy very solid, high ones - until my boy was crate trained at 10 months. I also used day care, puppy visit services, dog walkers and friends and family to make sure my boy got enough care and activities through the day. When my boy was injured, he spent far too long in his crate - there was no choice about that. His behaviour was quite dramatically altered. This did not take the form of howling, or destructive behaviour - observing him in his crate, you would think he was perfect, he was calm and quiet. But compared to how he was normally, outside the crate, he was "hyper", hugely sensitive to his environment, and changes in his environment, he would react with mad excitement to anything. I think older dogs might cope better, but I'd say your instincts are quite right, and you should try to find ways to allow your pup more time out of the crate. I don't think this just means a playpen though. I'd add at least 30 minutes in the morning play in the garden, and the same in the afternoon. Although a puppy crèche would be an even better option. [/quote] I will look into a playpen. And as I mentioned, doggy daycare will be an option when she's fully vaccinated, though definitely not daily. Maybe once a week as we're on a budget.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. [quote author=Rue7514 link=topic=7583.msg106519#msg106519 date=1409690777] I will look into a playpen. And as I mentioned, doggy daycare will be an option when she's fully vaccinated, though definitely not daily. Maybe once a week as we're on a budget. [/quote] When I took my boy to puppy school, people were trading time to swap puppy care - this would have been free, in financial terms if not time, anyway. A young stay at home mother, with kids, looked after my pup part of the time - it was very cheap. My Dad didn't charge me. Neither did my neighbour (I repaid the favour in other ways). When your pup is older, there are websites that some people use, "borrow my doggie" is one, that's also free. Look around, budget might not be the big problem you think it is. Sorry I can't agree it's ok to leave a young pup at home alone for most of the day.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I couldn't agree more with JulieT's comment that it is not ok to leave a young pup at home on its own for most of the day. I believe that it is very wrong for any dog, let alone a young puppy, to be left on its own for 8 hours 5 days a week. I believe that if a dog has to be left for this length of time then the owner should ensure that this time is broken up by a dog walker/family/friend. As Julie said, this doesn't have to cost a fortune and could even be free. They don't have to walk the dog, just cuddle/play in garden would be enough. Chloe
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. [quote author=rubyrubyruby link=topic=7583.msg106568#msg106568 date=1409727935] I couldn't agree more with JulieT's comment that it is not ok to leave a young pup at home on its own for most of the day. I believe that it is very wrong for any dog, let alone a young puppy, to be left on its own for 8 hours 5 days a week. I believe that if a dog has to be left for this length of time then the owner should ensure that this time is broken up by a dog walker/family/friend. As Julie said, this doesn't have to cost a fortune and could even be free. They don't have to walk the dog, just cuddle/play in garden would be enough. Chloe [/quote] As I mentioned in the original post, I come home for 40 minutes at lunch, so it's not 8 hours straight. And I will continue to do so when she is an adult.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I appreciate that you will be coming home at lunchtime, however I personally still feel that leaving a young puppy for 4 hrs at a time is unfair on it. In my opinion you cannot expect a young puppy to hold its bladder for that length of time and it also deserves not to have to wait for 4 hrs to see a human! Do you have any other people who can break up the 4 hrs and pop in ? Chloe
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. I'm sure Rue7514 will make the best decisions for her pup - in the light of what help is available to her, her budget, and how her dog seems to be coping.
Re: Concerned with excessive crating. [quote author=rubyrubyruby link=topic=7583.msg106994#msg106994 date=1409855257] I appreciate that you will be coming home at lunchtime, however I personally still feel that leaving a young puppy for 4 hrs at a time is unfair on it. In my opinion you cannot expect a young puppy to hold its bladder for that length of time and it also deserves not to have to wait for 4 hrs to see a human! Do you have any other people who can break up the 4 hrs and pop in ? Chloe [/quote] Unfortunately, we don't live near family (due to our jobs). My mom and dad would help out in a heartbeat, too. I will continue checking into dog walkers, etc. Once she is more calm, I can also bring her to work with me more often (which I did the first week we got her). Thanks for the input. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7583.msg107000#msg107000 date=1409855808] I'm sure Rue7514 will make the best decisions for her pup - in the light of what help is available to her, her budget, and how her dog seems to be coping. [/quote] Thanks, Julie.
