It’s safe to say that Charlie is a ball and dummy obsessed dog. I don’t think it is hugely extreme – reading round a bit, it’s clear that some dogs are so obsessed with tennis balls they can risk their lives to get or chase one - although his behaviour is very inconvenient to say the least. I meet a lot of people on walks that are basically controlling their dogs by using balls - so I think this obsession is quite common. I have always stayed well away from this, I don’t want to have to be throwing a tennis ball constantly in order to have any control over Charlie. I do use tennis balls as a reward though, and it works very, very, well. Yesterday, at training, Charlie could not complete a simple hand target 200m away (I couldn’t get further away and stay in the same field) from other dogs retrieving. I was training around, mainly, HPRs. There were a few comments made about how retriever training generates this obsession, and then seeks to control it. I’m not sure that I understand this completely, but the thrust was definitely that encouraging this obsession is not entirely a good thing for all dogs (or even all owners - I suspect I might fall into the category of someone who has generated the obsession but lacks the skills to control it). I thought that was interesting, but like I say don’t quite appreciate the implications. In my 121 with the trainer, we had chance to discuss Charlie’s obsession in a bit more detail. All of the struggles I’ve had with bringing back the dummy have probably contributed to building up in Charlie’s mind that dummies are some incredibly valuable and exciting thing. Interestingly, at one point the trainer was holding dummies, and I walked back to my car to get treats. Charlie has to see me walk at least 100m away from him before he’ll leave a dummy to follow me. (And then he dashes back, quick). I have a nightmare with other dogs and tennis ball launchers at the Common – if Charlie is off lead, it’s as though I’ve never done a minute’s recall training in my life. So, yesterday, I skipped cone target training to put Charlie on a harness and tie him to post in the middle of the training field, with me in a chair next to him, and watch the advanced students retrieve. We were about 100m away, but sometimes the dogs moved closer (one was running round with the dummy for example). Charlie started off lunging, whining and fixated on the dogs and dummies. I sat beside him with a handful of large king prawns in my hand. (Charlie adores prawns). And just waited for him to decide to take the food instead of looking at the dummies. It took a while at first, but got quicker and quicker. Soon, he was more interested in the prawns than the dummies, and only decided to ignore the food when someone was actually banging a dummy or throwing it. Then he even ignored that, so we moved closer and repeated, with the same result. I called it a day at that, and didn’t have him watch the class go over the bales in the puppy scurry, but put him away. I discussed this with the trainer. It is about Charlie’s thresholds, but it is not the same as dealing with a nervous or fearful dog. It is quite ok to allow Charlie to display this behaviour (although I have no chance of getting him to actually learn or do anything productive while he is doing it) and reward for it reducing. I was not clicking, just feeding when he wasn’t whining, lunging or fussing. He must never get what he wants though when he is fussing, that would be reinforcing the behaviour. Since the undesirable behaviour was reducing, I know I was getting it right. It was very quick. I was really pleased by how swiftly his behaviour changed for the better. I didn’t push it too far though. So my homework for this month is to try to expand this type of “desensitisation” to more environments with Charlie. I thought this was all very interesting. The benefits and downsides of ball obsession, and how to go about the first steps of getting some control in exciting environments.
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs I have a ball/any throwing item obsessed lab too! I have to be on my guard to any owner who doesn't think to look ahead and just throws ball for their dog, not thinking that the one coming towards them might want it too! Ruby will jump in river/sea after kids throwing stones in there unless I am on to her first. Having a ball obsessed dog can definitely have advantages because they can be so focused on it that they will ignore other things around them. Ruby carries a ball in her mouth on most of our walks but it doesn't stop her going another dogs ball and fitting 2 in her mouth instead! My wcs is much better balanced in that she loves to go after a ball and retrieve, but she is not obsessed. She would never ever go after something that wasn't thrown by me or didn't belong to her.
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs My Lab is trained by a rewarding tennis ball, but he doesn't always get the ball as a reward, sometimes gets nothing except a 'good dog' from me. I don't think he would run after another person's ball as he knows the command "leave it", I am lucky though in that we don't come across ball throwing people often! I do believe that he would be more focused on my ball rather than the other person's ball. He did have a very short phase of running towards a football, but quickly gave that up. There must be a way to control Charlie's urge and for him to focus only on your ball, maybe it is just age and he will grow out of it as mine did.
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs Harley is ball obsessed, but won't go after others peoples/dogs balls. She looks to me to throw it. We do some retrieving, some 'find it' in long grass and water retrieves (I use a dummy and a ball in water). She often carries her ball around with her when she's had enough of retrieving. We are working on bring the ball back - she will now bring a dummy back (done this at lunch time today with 99% success). I am lucky that Harley will ignore most other dogs, but at the same time, if another dog picks her ball up she will just follow them until they drop it. She won't tell them off at all!
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs That's interesting Naya - I wonder if Harley is really ball obsessed though, or she is, but you have associated control with it. What would happen on a walk if you didn't have a ball? I mean how would she be, and how much attention would be on you anyway, regardless of you not having the ball?
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs I wouldn't class Scott and Scout as ball obsessed. Scout is more ball orientated than Scott which in some ways makes things easier because I can use it to get and keep his attention and also use it as a reward. However Scott will retrieve anything whereas Scout only really wants a ball. My old lab was totally ball obsessed. He would retrieve constantly if given the chance. However he only wanted his own ball he never went for another dog's ball and he didn't get excited by other dogs retrieving he'd just watch me hoping he would get a go. Two of the three rescue dogs in the family are also ball obsessed. Both terrier crosses but retrieve like a gundog. :. Harry isn't interested in any other ball but his own although pip will pinch another ball and both get excited by other dogs retrieving and get yappy with each other. Ralph the big rescue dog is not interested in retrieving at all. He will do a few then get bored. I would guess he is collie, alsation cross. It's a shame because all my cousin was interested in doing was getting him to retrieve as exercise. If he'd taken some time to find out what was Ralphs obsession I think he'd have been good at agility. Now I get told he's too old to do new things. I bite my tongue. Some dogs are obviously more ball obsessed than others even in the same breed. I wonder why this is? Is it nature or nurture ? I had to build both S&S retrieving desire but Scott took a lot longer than Scout and it is Scout with more of an obsession. ???
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs [quote author=Jen link=topic=7607.msg106263#msg106263 date=1409579552] Some dogs are obviously more ball obsessed than others even in the same breed. I wonder why this is? Is it nature or nurture ? I had to build both S&S retrieving desire but Scott took a lot longer than Scout and it is Scout with more of an obsession. ??? [/quote] I wonder....when I look back on Charlie's puppyhood, if I generated a ball obsession, it was accidental. I wasn't interested in gundog stuff at all. Charlie was interested in balls and we threw them for him, but in a casual way. There isn't one working dog in Charlie's pedigree, not one - but maybe the ball obsession is not a good indication of "drive" or working ability. Maybe it's just about excitement.
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs I do tend to carry a tennis ball as my safety blanket for me I have been out without it and Rourke still behaves and does what I want him to do. I am sure being trained with a tennis ball has paid off with good behaviour. His reward wasn't a thrown ball, but one thrown down at my feet and immediately taken off him again. He does get thrown balls to retrieve, but that is a retrieving lesson not a reward.
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs I do think a tennis ball used as a reward should be as effective as any other reward based training (hope so, anyway). That's not what I often see out and about though. I often see a tennis ball in view, often with a dog fixated on it, and/or repeated throws again and again so the dog does nothing but run - fetch - wait for next throw - run....
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7607.msg106287#msg106287 date=1409583589] That's not what I often see out and about though. I often see a tennis ball in view, often with a dog fixated on it, and/or repeated throws again and again so the dog does nothing but run - fetch - wait for next throw - run.... [/quote] Yep that's basically how a ball is used with Harry and pip and how I've seen it used that way with lots of dogs. Although the dogs obviously get excitement from it and presumably enjoy it, in some instances I think maybe it's an easy way to exercise and tire a dog out. There isn't much skill, if that's the right word, involved. Perhaps at what age you start with a ball makes a difference. My old lab was definitely younger than S&S when I started using a ball with him. I used to get S&S to retrieve all sorts. ???
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7607.msg106287#msg106287 date=1409583589] I do think a tennis ball used as a reward should be as effective as any other reward based training (hope so, anyway). That's not what I often see out and about though. I often see a tennis ball in view, often with a dog fixated on it, and/or repeated throws again and again so the dog does nothing but run - fetch - wait for next throw - run.... [/quote] I agree with all of that
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs Harley will spend 85% of the time on a walk with the ball in her mouth - she will ignore 95% of people when she has her ball and she will sometimes drop it to say a very brief (1-2 seconds) hello to another dog, but otherwise ignores them. She will sometimes play with another lab, but jot really any other breeds! If I need to get her attention, I will pull a second ball out of my bag and wave it around - this works 99% of the time. I do use it as a form of control and reward if she pays me attention. If we go on a walk without a ball, she will pick up a stick or find a lost ball - she will never take a ball from another dog though. She never wonders far from me, even if she is very familiar with the location. She always comes back if a tree blocks her view to me or something else. I suppose from this, I can say she is ball obsessed, but I do have control over her still if that makes sense??
Re: Dummy and ball obsessed dogs [quote author=Naya link=topic=7607.msg106306#msg106306 date=1409593243] If I need to get her attention, I will pull a second ball out of my bag and wave it around - this works 99% of the time. I suppose from this, I can say she is ball obsessed, but I do have control over her still if that makes sense?? [/quote] Well, she sounds super interested in balls, that's for sure. I think you might be bribing her with balls though, rather than rewarding her - which is fine, so long as you always want to do that (and always have a second ball).
